Design Discussion

[Harley Stroh]

So last we spoke we had moved to considering the idea of a castle turned floating castle. Chris mentioned that we should only consider having – tops – 9 encounters. I think I can draw up something that meets this. I'll cough up a rough draft over the weekend and see what you guys think. I'll also come up with some backstory that doesn't specify just who or what our Fazool is.

What do you think of assigning "scrub" rooms to me? I could write up 6 or so rooms/level that have dungeon dressing but really aren't an encounter. This could have two benefits:

*Dungeon is bigger.

*Players can't assume that a room = an encounter. (This is something that I'm battling in a current DCC. Move into the room, encounter a monster; move into the next room, encounter another monster. Bleagh.)

//H

[Jengenritz]

*Players can't assume that a room = an encounter. (This is something that I'm battling in a current DCC. Move into the room, encounter a monster; move into the next room, encounter another monster. Bleagh.)

I had the same trouble with the Palace, Harley. The great halls that circumlocute the first level were originally bare, but playtesting found that to be pretty boring and a timekiller because people would search them anyway.

The grimlocks, the cleaning bot, the trap, and the weapon racks (in the north, west, south, and east halls, respectively) were all eventually added - only one of which was a combat - to fill out what were intended to be "blank" rooms.

*Dungeon is bigger.

As I understand things, we want at least some teams to reach the end of each level.
The bottom level of the Palace had nine areas, and no teams made it all the way through. I'd say no more than seven areas total so only the best teams will reach the end, maybe even just six.

[Harley Stroh]

Understood. 7 it is then.

Hmm. Maybe it is worth creating something that can be expanded in the print version. So, 7 rooms in the tournament version, and 14 in the take home DCC.

I think the Slaver tournaments were designed this way; you can still read the notes to see where corridors ended, etc.

//H

[Jengenritz]

That's something I've been meaning to talk to Joseph about. There is a corridor on level 2 that is blocked off...I've already talked to Luke Johnson about the menagerie that could be down there.

In short, I think that's a good idea. Some ideas or adventures are too big to be contained in the crunch of a tournament.

[goodmangames]

I also like the idea of "post-tournament" rooms.

Within the tournament, what about "encore" rooms? We always assume the big bad guy has to be the last room. What if there are other rooms afterward? "The Thief King's Vault" from the boxed set has a good example -- the vault itself, which is the last encounter and a single massive trap. We could reward teams that speed through to the final encounter -- and survive -- with rooms where they can brave more dangers to accumulate more points.

[Jengenritz]

That sounds like a cool idea...that gives us a meaty crawl while still allowing the PCs to resolve the issue within the tournament time.

[arlanni]

I agree 100%. The tourney module should be only 6-7 encounters per round. And by adding "blank rooms", it only slows the teams down. Although not realistic (but then again again pre-selected spell lists and replenishing hp between rounds aren't either), I say we add the dungeon dressing in the printed module. Added designer notes would be a cool idea as well. WotC is doing that with their adventures. Gives the reader some insight on why things were designed that way. On the same note, we need to make an effort to reduce treasure/magic items in the tourney version. That way we can simplify bookkeeping between rounds. We can restock the dungeon with appropriate loot for the printed module.

Chris

[Harley Stroh]

I also like the idea of "post-tournament" rooms.

Within the tournament, what about "encore" rooms? We always assume the big bad guy has to be the last room. What if there are other rooms afterward? "The Thief King's Vault" from the boxed set has a good example -- the vault itself, which is the last encounter and a single massive trap. We could reward teams that speed through to the final encounter -- and survive -- with rooms where they can brave more dangers to accumulate more points.

Huh. That's a great idea. Chance for players to finish off the badguy and still play to the very end of their time, squeezing the last bit of points out of the time resource.

//H

[Harley Stroh]

Rounds 1 & 3 make sense. What's the plan for round 2?

//H

[Jengenritz]

Let's see...

Round 1 introduces the villain as a mortal, he gets killed in the end.

Round 3 is where they are going to kill that cambion that used to be the mortal.

Round 2 has to be the round where the bad guy comes back and messes with the PCs, presents himself as an ongoing threat that they failed to stop in round 1 (even though they killed him). This spurs them to pursue him into round 3.

The best answer to this question would be: what is the bad guy trying to accomplish?
We know he ends up with a flying castle...why does he need it?

And, seriously, let's not get into a prophecy or anything. Just a request.

[Harley Stroh]

The best answer to this question would be: what is the bad guy trying to accomplish?
We know he ends up with a flying castle...why does he need it?

It makes a heck of a seige engine. If our cambion has a grudge against nation X, he could drop it on the capitol and wipe out defenses and moral in a single night.

//H

[Jengenritz]

See...now that's what I'm thinking. I've always loved the backdrop of war (in fiction, mind you) for stories.

If round 3 took place as the Death Star was looming over, say, Hath Hall or Galaron, dropping LaSalle's hang-gliding kobolds from TAB, some feather fall-ing giants, a few squads of free-fall/levitate wizard shock troops protected by air elementals, and a fiendish manticore-mounted tricked-out, grizzled hobgoblin general...oh yeah, baby, it's ON!

Now the four-hour time limit is how long until the capital is razed.

OR...round 2 is the Death Star's first appearance, vomiting out bad guys from the sky, but the PCs win and the Death Star retreats. In round 3 they've tracked it down to end its threat.

The level 2 dungeon the monarch's keep. PCs have four hours to reach the monarch before the bad guys assassinate him, but the threat from the sky keeps intruding, and there are secret passages that can get you ahead, but they're trapped, and some areas are forbidden by royal constructs that you have to defeat anyway.

Yeah, I know...not DCC enough. I'm just spitballing here.

[goodmangames]

Now the four-hour time limit is how long until the capital is razed.

I really like that idea. It transforms the time limit from a "real world" mechanism to a "game world" mechanism. There could be a huge points penalty for a team that doesn't finish before the time limit -- because, after all, they let the capitol get razed...

[Jengenritz]

Hmm...interesting. By reducing the room count, we're saying, "You should be able to finish this." By adding on the penalty for NOT finishing, we're saying, "You messed up by not finishing."

That's devious. I'm in.

The best one-shot con game I ever played was Blue Planet. Long story short, we're Colonial Marines (a-la Aliens) raiding an undersea lab where things have gone wrong. After one hour or so, we find a big ol' bomb with a timer on it.
Then the referee reaches into his bag and produces a realistic-looking bomb with a cheap timer on it. The countdown is how long we had left in the round, in real time and in game time.

Incredible..the rest of the round was tense, and at the table we all got real snipey as the round went on. Then the bomb went off as the round ended. It was genius.

[Harley Stroh]

Please find attached a rough draft of the map for rounds 1 & 3, along with design suggestions and notes.

*There are technically 11 potential areas, but the showdown room (area 1-9) can be reached in 4 to 5 moves, via any of the 3 paths (left staircase, right staircase, or climbing up onto the balcony.) We can also drop area 1-6.

*Encore rooms would be added onto the sides of 1-9, but I need to remap the top first.

*Changes for round 3: When the castle is torn into the air, a portion of the dungeon rips free, opening 1-9 to infiltration in round 3. So PCs essentially run the "dungeon" backwards from round 1. Final showdown in the courtyard or atop the balcony.

Rough map:
http://www.poisonclanpress.com/1rough.jpg

Design notes:
http://www.poisonclanpress.com/1-hs-9-10.doc

[Harley Stroh]

Hmm...interesting. By reducing the room count, we're saying, "You should be able to finish this." By adding on the penalty for NOT finishing, we're saying, "You messed up by not finishing."

That's devious. I'm in.

Heh. Ditto what Adrian said. Time to save the world, kids!

//H

[Harley Stroh]

So what's the verdict on the map above? Yea? Nay? Do something else?

//H

[Jengenritz]

My first thought is that it's too "branchy". One of the comments I heard again and again was that the Palace 1st level was a vastly different experience if you went right or left.
To respond to that, I tried to "herd" PCs toward the Oracle by having that secret door be open and by having the grimlocks warn people away from Ordo (not that it worked).

The way to take this map and make it linear (or "herd" the round 1 PCs) is to use secret doors. A secret door with a DC around 28-30 should be impossible for really low-level PCs to find, even taking 20 all the way around.
This allows the round 1 dungeon to appear larger than it really is, since several areas are effectively "out of bounds," but it opens them up for the round 3 dungeon 'cause THEN the PCs will be able to find them.

"Ah," you say, "but what about detect secret doors, Adrian? Sure, we can have the pregens not have that spell (and not expect anyone to whine about not including it), but in the print version it may get taken."

"Ho-ho!" I guffaw. "but pretty much all detection spells are blocked by 'a thin sheet of lead,' clearly less than 1 inch 'cause other metals of that weight block detect spells. My point is thus: what if the building materials used in our dungeon incorporate a lot of lead?"

This could be from design or by accident, a secret benefit to "lairing" here (as described in Better Lairs & Dungeons, Swordsfall 3185 edition). In either case, a dwarf could use stonecunning (or anyone could use K: geology/arcana/architecture) to discover the high lead content.

Now sure, all of this cleverness with secret doors reduces the effective size of round 1, but now we've greatly increased the size of round 3.
Well, wrenching this place from the ground probably made some holes (like that being entered in round 3), so some structures can be damaged or missing (and those holes sealed up).

I'm not sure that including info on how to defeat a cambion in round 1 is a good idea since it pretty clearly tells the low-level PCs, "Hey, look for the cambion later." Including it in round 3 is awesome, 'cause they'll need that info, and if it's behind one of our super-secret doors, it can have been there all along.

Also, your notes are a little confusing...when do the heroes fight the cambion: round 1 or round 3?

Call it the Ravenloft fan in me, but I love giant balconies.

[Harley Stroh]

Adrian,

Good critiques. I'm a big fan of lead sheets, esp. if the citadel was constructed by Sezrakan the Old.

Secret doors: Easy enough to do. I'm going to wait for everyone else to weigh in before drawing changes.

Cambion Thoughts: Ol' Sez tricked an evil force into being born into the body of a mortal (a cambion). Cambion is killed in round 1, setting the spirit free for round 2 and 3 mayhem.

//H

[goodmangames]

I think this is a great start. It feels very different than all the other tournament crawls. And it has "repeat" possibility for play at different levels.

I agree with Adrian that it offers too many choices. One option is secret doors, as he suggested. Another option is to ensure that the final encounter can't be reached until the PCs explore the whole level. The secret door to area 9 could have some prerequisite -- even if the PCs find it, they can't open it until they've done A, B, and C in areas 4, 5, and 8.

Other tournament concerns:
* Open air scares me. Players are wily things; they'll turn this on its head one way or another to screw up the freeform tournament flow. Even at 0-level somebody will come up with something...
* Also allow for the possibility of someone exploring the outer grounds, outside the walls. (This could perhaps make a good easter egg area in the printed version.)

Expanding on the "do A, B, C to open the door" idea, along with Adrian's idea, you could even have secret doors that are undetectable until something happens, then they magically appear. After all, this thing was built by an archmage, right? Area 7 could be the major puzzle. The doors to area 7 don't appear until the bad guys in 4, 5, and 8 are defeated (wizard's guardians of some kind). If the puzzle in 7 is solved, the heroes get some trinket. Combined with another trinket in area 6, they're now able to open the secret door to 9. Or something like that.

[Harley Stroh]

Very cool. I forgot the archmage aspect. Unless Chris protests, I'll cut it down and come back with another design the funnels more cleanly.

//H

[arlanni]

Funneling the PCs in the team tourney is important. Give them a few choices, but go with Josephs idea that the final encounter can only be acheived after the PCs perform A, B, C, etc. Vault was like this on level 1. Also refer to the layout of Crypt, for an example of a few choices, but really is a liner adv. Again, the printed version can have other filler rooms that eliminates the linear feel of the adventure.

Also, keep in mind the scoring system. Encounters need to have options for scoring, the more the better. Finding keys, solving puzzles, etc. all gather points in addition to dfeating critters and gathering loot.

Two more things we need to discuss:
1. How many round 1's will we develop. One (as we did in the past), or 3 (as we discussed) this year. If we go with the latter, we can expand the castle to 3 times the size (in # of rooms). Then each version of the round is just a part of the overall dungeon. For example, the final encounter is in the center. Three great halls (West, East, and South) and their associated six encounter areas all lead to the final encounter. But each hall has three sets of different encounters (all balanced, of course).

2. Our big bad Cambion: What class will he be? Wizard or fighter? Wizard is the classic tale, but the Chalychia was a wizard, and she's coming back next year, so we might want to mix things up a bit. How about a cleric (or Adrian's favorite, a cleric/wizard), or even a bard

Chris

[Harley Stroh]

Bard. Ew.

What about the 3.5 version of the 1e "Cleric-Assasin" multiclass. Something like a cleric (cult weirdness) + rogue (shadowy).

I can _totally_ do the 3 way castle --- I feel much better about the scope of the citadel and size. I'll try to have drafts in tomorrow or the next day.

As a throwback to Adrian's D&D days we can call the castle "Black Eagle" or something.

//H

[Harley Stroh]

Question: Does it skew anything if the 3-fold dungeon entrances have different themes?

I.e.:

*Entrance through the gatehouse
*Entrance through the sewers
*Entrance through hole in ruined baliey wall

So probably:

*3 unique areas to each "path" (1 trap, 2 combat)
*1 central puzzle area w/ 3 side rooms (trap/puzzle/combat) --- do we have a good puzzle writer? I'm not the one.
*1 Vault w/ Cambion (combat)

So each group will go through-

2 traps
4 combat
2 puzzles

Total: Each path has 8 areas + 2 encore rooms.

//H

[Jengenritz]

(or Adrian's favorite, a cleric/wizard)

Ha! I'm never living down Issele!

Seriously, I'm glad this got brought up...Chris makes a good point about dipping too often in the wizard well.

Year One: Chalychia the Devil Lich - arcane spellcaster
Year Two: Myrkjartan the Possessed - dragon, so a little bit of everything
Year Three: Hand of Cadixtat - aberration, and a little bit of everything
Year Four: Unnamed Cambion - TBD
Year Five: Chalychia the Devil Lich - arcane spellcaster

I'd say we're due for a beat-down bad guy (a-la Sarevok from Baldur's Gate or Warduke) or some kind of different spellcaster, like a unholy summoner or one sadistic illusionist (ever read Weasel's Luck, one of the Dragonlance novels? THAT was an illusionist!).

Thematically, a rogue/cleric/assassin is way cool. Mechanically, it doesn't work as well. Each one is on the 3/4 BAB progression, so you end up taking three hits to BAB. Clerics are Wis/divine casters and assassins are Int/arcane casters, plus rogues are Dex-based, so your ability points get spread out over quite a bit of material.
For sneak attack to work you need either a buddy, improved invisibility, or any one of several non-OGL spells.
For the assassin's death attack to work, you need 3 rounds to study the target. Even then it has a really low DC, even after taking the monstrous feat Ability Focus.

Take it from a guy who knows...I played a rogue/cleric/assassin in a long-running evil campaign. Although a fun character, Ascérdes was useless in a fight.

You know...I realize it's iconic to have the bad guy face off against the party one-on-one, but if I were a bad guy I'd be more like Xykon in Order of the Stick...save some minions for the end.

You bumped your room count up to 8...and by making the party solve the Big Puzzle to get to the bad guy, you're indicating they have to go through each area, reducing chances they reach our Foozil.

I believe Joseph once said Richard Pocklington was a good puzzle writer. I know it isn't me.

Three entrances/three layouts = cool.