So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Moderators: DJ LaBoss, michaelcurtis, finarvyn, Harley Stroh
-
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 471
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:14 am
- Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
I see some 3rd party action starting already. But call me disappointed, as 3rd party sources are often unbalanced and unplaytested. No offense meant to these folks who create the stuff.
The game is really ripe for:
More Monsters
More Spells
More Races
More Classes
More Patrons/Gods/Pantheons
More Equipment
And levels 10 - 20!
Each could be a new book, really.
The game is really ripe for:
More Monsters
More Spells
More Races
More Classes
More Patrons/Gods/Pantheons
More Equipment
And levels 10 - 20!
Each could be a new book, really.
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
It's your sandbox, make some.
!
!
- IronWolf
- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 268
- Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:28 pm
- Location: Central Ohio
- Contact:
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
A lot of us are pretty happy with the current set of rules and the gaps it easily allows us to play in. A lot of the things you mention in your post are ripe for judges to fill in the gaps with what fits in their world.
We can use monster manuals and other bestiaries for inspiration if need be and convert them to DCC RPG or even mash up monsters for truly unusual beasts. More spells can be unique or crafted by the player's character and obtained by questing after unique components or bits of knowledge. And so on and so on.
I do believe Goodman Games is planning on releasing an annual book which will add to the system, but I believe the preference is to not flood the market with rules supplements. Also, don't overlook the modules as they will often contain new bits within them that you can yank for your own game as well.
We can use monster manuals and other bestiaries for inspiration if need be and convert them to DCC RPG or even mash up monsters for truly unusual beasts. More spells can be unique or crafted by the player's character and obtained by questing after unique components or bits of knowledge. And so on and so on.
I do believe Goodman Games is planning on releasing an annual book which will add to the system, but I believe the preference is to not flood the market with rules supplements. Also, don't overlook the modules as they will often contain new bits within them that you can yank for your own game as well.
- finarvyn
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
- Posts: 2601
- Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:42 am
- FLGS: Fair Game, Downers Grove IL
- Location: Chicago suburbs
- Contact:
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
The plan is for Goodman Games to focus on modules, which is something they are really good at. Others can do "third party" rules add-ons, monster books, or whatever else they want.
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
I'd hate to see DCC hit the official rules treadmill; to me, a decent annual is the best approach to avoid the deluge of splatbooks that drown other fantasy rpgs. Besides, a hefty chunk of the third party material is actually pretty good (so far at least). For example, the 2nd issue of Crawl! has an expanded equipment list and some new weapons that cover those areas not already covered in the main rulebook, as well as other great articles. It's cheap, well-written, and delivered to your door.
As regards two of your desires, More Monsters is something already addressed by a few things. 1) DCC RPG is one where "standard" monsters are supposed to be uncommon. 2) That means that many adventures will feature unique beasties, and the DCC modules already do. 3) Add in the fact that the rulebook has several random generators and means of customizing critters, and you're looking good for your monster needs, especially if 4) you already have a copy of the fantastic Random Esoteric Creature Generator.
Levels 10 - 20 really isn't needed unless you want immortal level play, because the levels in DCC do not directly equate to levels in editions of D&D. In fact, many assumptions based on D&D don't necessarily suit DCC and its sources. Levelled DCC characters are generally more powerful and capable than their D&D counterparts, so a 10th level DCC character is already likely equal to a 20th level D&D character anyway. A level 9 DCC character, for example, is described as "The best there ever was", and occurs only once in every 10,000,000 people! A level 10 character is described as "an immortal or demi-god"!
cheers!
Colin
As regards two of your desires, More Monsters is something already addressed by a few things. 1) DCC RPG is one where "standard" monsters are supposed to be uncommon. 2) That means that many adventures will feature unique beasties, and the DCC modules already do. 3) Add in the fact that the rulebook has several random generators and means of customizing critters, and you're looking good for your monster needs, especially if 4) you already have a copy of the fantastic Random Esoteric Creature Generator.
Levels 10 - 20 really isn't needed unless you want immortal level play, because the levels in DCC do not directly equate to levels in editions of D&D. In fact, many assumptions based on D&D don't necessarily suit DCC and its sources. Levelled DCC characters are generally more powerful and capable than their D&D counterparts, so a 10th level DCC character is already likely equal to a 20th level D&D character anyway. A level 9 DCC character, for example, is described as "The best there ever was", and occurs only once in every 10,000,000 people! A level 10 character is described as "an immortal or demi-god"!
cheers!
Colin
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Yes, let's avoid rules bloat please!
I like the idea of 'this is the game' from Goodman Games.
It was a major selling point. Expanding things through modules and a yearbook sounds perfect..
I like the idea of 'this is the game' from Goodman Games.
It was a major selling point. Expanding things through modules and a yearbook sounds perfect..
Playing since about 1980
Latest games: DCC RPG of course!
Quote I like: "I am on a computer therfore I am" (Alan Plater)
Latest games: DCC RPG of course!
Quote I like: "I am on a computer therfore I am" (Alan Plater)
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Wasn't the purpose (the original one at least) of DCC RPG to support the modules so that Goodman wouldn't have to rely on D&D version X or all the other system wars going on? In that sense, it makes sense that there is a single rule book and that Goodman focuses on the one thing they are passionate about: adventures!
- Raven_Crowking
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
- Posts: 3159
- Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:41 am
- FLGS: The Sword & Board
- Contact:
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
No 3pp will hit the shelves without having gone through GG quality control. It's part of the licensing agreement.
SoBH pbp:
Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
The only monster book you'll ever need.Colin wrote:the fantastic Random Esoteric Creature Generator
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Click here to purchase my five AD&D modules.
Each of these modules is self-contained. No other books are required other than the three AD&D rulebooks (or a similar set of rules if you prefer).
Click here to purchase prints of Luigi Castellani's cover art for these modules.
Each of these modules is self-contained. No other books are required other than the three AD&D rulebooks (or a similar set of rules if you prefer).
Click here to purchase prints of Luigi Castellani's cover art for these modules.
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
If you're looking for Patrons, some members of these forums are supporting this project:cthulhudarren wrote:I see some 3rd party action starting already. But call me disappointed, as 3rd party sources are often unbalanced and unplaytested. No offense meant to these folks who create the stuff.
The game is really ripe for:
...
More Patrons/Gods/Pantheons
...
http://www.indiegogo.com/Unusualsuspects?a=939800
There's also a separate thread devoted to it:
http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 70&t=41874
Terry Olson
- Karaptis
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 411
- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:24 pm
- Location: The end of time.
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Here here!RevTurkey wrote:Yes, let's avoid rules bloat please!
I like the idea of 'this is the game' from Goodman Games.
It was a major selling point. Expanding things through modules and a yearbook sounds perfect..
- Karaptis
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 411
- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:24 pm
- Location: The end of time.
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
It wont be like many of the books that came out when 3rd edition gave the OGL. Some of those were laughable.
-
- Far-Sighted Wanderer
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:39 pm
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Personally, I think leaving the rules alone is the best idea. Part of the reason I lost interest with D&D (and several other games) was because they became over explained. Part of what I like is the mystery of a bizarre fantasy world. Once every nook, cranny and monster has been cataloged, alphabetized and explained into the ground, its not weird anymore.
I'd like to see Goodman support the game in other ways. I know they are all about "miniatures are not essential" (and they aren't), but a line of old school minis designed by the likes of Erol Otus, Dee, and Mullen? (amongst others) well, I'm in.
I think most of us would love to see "Official" dice for the game. I even think a Boxed edition of the game would be nice. Where DCCRPG is all about Old School, an Old School box set (with dice and crayon) is in order.
I'd like to see Goodman support the game in other ways. I know they are all about "miniatures are not essential" (and they aren't), but a line of old school minis designed by the likes of Erol Otus, Dee, and Mullen? (amongst others) well, I'm in.
I think most of us would love to see "Official" dice for the game. I even think a Boxed edition of the game would be nice. Where DCCRPG is all about Old School, an Old School box set (with dice and crayon) is in order.
-
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
- Posts: 2704
- Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:41 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
No plans for additional rules supplements. I would like the same "easy of entry" 5 years from now as exists now: 1 rulebook, 1 easy choice, no "catching up" to pre-existing players. One additional Annual each year, with optional material, based on learnings and inspirations from that previous year's play. And a boatload of modules!
- Ravenheart87
- Tight-Lipped Warlock
- Posts: 903
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:34 pm
- Location: Győr, Hungary
- Contact:
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Goodman Games has to approve every third party product as far as I know. Balance in a game, which puts so much emphasis on randomness is not really an issue. Some third party publishers have been working on their stuff since the beta version and use them in their own campaigns, thus I think they had enough time and opportunity to playtest their content.cthulhudarren wrote:I see some 3rd party action starting already. But call me disappointed, as 3rd party sources are often unbalanced and unplaytested. No offense meant to these folks who create the stuff.
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
You can create one in a few minutes and you have plenty of stuff to use for customization. And as others mentioned, we have an awesome Random Esoteric Creature Generator.The game is really ripe for:
More Monsters
Most of the current spells cover more than one. But I do agree, writing spells for DCC RPG requires quite a bit of work.More Spells
It's quite easy to write races, especially if you're not going the race-as-class way. My campaign is going to need a lot, and a few of them will be quite extreme.More Races
I was planning to write a few, but changed my mind (at least for now): the already existing classes cover quite a lot. If the PC wants to enhance his class (eg. his warrior wants to be a paladin), then send him on a quest (kill the plague demon of Khazardan and your god gives you the ability to lay hands). I'm going to write some guidelines if I'm going to have some free time, as I promised it months ago.More Classes
There are a lot of 3pps working on patrons.More Patrons/Gods/Pantheons
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
There are already plenty of resources published for both mundane and magical equipment. You don't need the official DCC RPG seal to use them. If you want an exhausting list of equipment, I recommend ...And a 10-Foot Pole.More Equipment
So far reaching level 10 seems to be long and nigh-impossible task. Don't forget, that the levels scale differently here than in D&D. DCC's level 10 is like 3e's level 20.And levels 10 - 20!
Vorpal Mace: a humble rpg blog with some DCC-related stuff.
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Boat load of modules! Hurray! Joseph and Harley are cool.
Playing since about 1980
Latest games: DCC RPG of course!
Quote I like: "I am on a computer therfore I am" (Alan Plater)
Latest games: DCC RPG of course!
Quote I like: "I am on a computer therfore I am" (Alan Plater)
- finarvyn
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
- Posts: 2601
- Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:42 am
- FLGS: Fair Game, Downers Grove IL
- Location: Chicago suburbs
- Contact:
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Thirty-one alternate covers to choose from...goodmangames wrote:I would like the same "easy of entry" 5 years from now as exists now: 1 rulebook, 1 easy choice...
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
The "one rulebook" model has failed, Joseph. I already own three core rulebooks and see two more on the horizon to buy.
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
- IronWolf
- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 268
- Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:28 pm
- Location: Central Ohio
- Contact:
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Agreed. Rulebook overload has diminished my interest in more than one RPG. Most recently Pathfinder.ghostisluminous wrote:Personally, I think leaving the rules alone is the best idea. Part of the reason I lost interest with D&D (and several other games) was because they became over explained. Part of what I like is the mystery of a bizarre fantasy world. Once every nook, cranny and monster has been cataloged, alphabetized and explained into the ground, its not weird anymore.
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
I would say most added nothing essential to the core gameKaraptis wrote:It wont be like many of the books that came out when 3rd edition gave the OGL. Some of those were laughable.
-
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 471
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:14 am
- Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Oh I certainly agree that too many rules supplements spoil the game, but I think there could be a happy medium. 1st Ed did it pretty well.
There is certainly room for at least one "official" monster manual, and spells seem difficult to write IMHO.
There is certainly room for at least one "official" monster manual, and spells seem difficult to write IMHO.
-
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:36 am
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
I have to, so I apologize:cthulhudarren wrote:Oh I certainly agree that too many rules supplements spoil the game, but I think there could be a happy medium. 1st Ed did it pretty well.
There is certainly room for at least one "official" monster manual, and spells seem difficult to write IMHO.
1st Edition was completely off its rocker in regards to rule supplements - you needed 3 just to have the game in the first place, and they have release dates spanning 3 years for just those.
"Here's your monster manual" Yay! ...wait, where do I figure out how to make a character? "In the D&D game boxed set, until next year at least."
"Here's your player's handbook" Finally, I can make an actually A D&D character. ...where's the section for advanced DM stuff? Lemme guess, another book next year?
"Yup."
D&D has a history of being way outside most people's idea of "happy medium" between expansion upon the game and avoidance of that "bloat" feeling.
My personal feeling on the matter is that there are only three games currently in the world, as far as I know, that leave me feeling satisfied about either how many rulebooks I already own to play the game or how many I "have to" buy to have what I "need" to play the game: Dungeon Crawl Classics and Call of Cthulhu which can be run for the rest of my life with just the 1 rulebook each and still have mystery and "fresh" feelings when I start up a campaign, and Shadowrun - which has basically always had a set number of "core" books, regardless of how many came out, and has solidified that in their 4th edition with a grand total of 6 core rulebooks (1 big one and 5 little ones with specific topics) making up the "needed" rules and most other major releases being plot/adventure or setting material.
-
- Wild-Eyed Zealot
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:17 pm
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
Thank you, Goodman team. One rulebook to rule them all... I like that you guys are fixing errata, and adding the index to future releases. Other than that, why mess with something that is truly original, knows what it is and what it is not, and ISN'T attempting to please everyone (and as a result not pleasing anyone.)
What I've tended to notice is that many players get hung up on rulesets and edition wars. Some folks would rather read and collect different systems than actually play the game.
As The Bard said: "The Play is the thing," meaning that the adventures you are actually enjoying really more important than this rule or that rule. The moment-to-moment experience of gaming is SO much more gratifying and rewarding than being a rules wonk -- comparing and arguing over what rules from what version are better.
I say, take that analysis and time and put it into the actual act of gaming itself! So many finicky little rule bits that people argue about tend to evaporate or take care of themselves in actual play at the table.
Let the action of the adventure be your focus and you will be greatly rewarded, trust me.
What I've tended to notice is that many players get hung up on rulesets and edition wars. Some folks would rather read and collect different systems than actually play the game.
As The Bard said: "The Play is the thing," meaning that the adventures you are actually enjoying really more important than this rule or that rule. The moment-to-moment experience of gaming is SO much more gratifying and rewarding than being a rules wonk -- comparing and arguing over what rules from what version are better.
I say, take that analysis and time and put it into the actual act of gaming itself! So many finicky little rule bits that people argue about tend to evaporate or take care of themselves in actual play at the table.
Let the action of the adventure be your focus and you will be greatly rewarded, trust me.
-
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 471
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:14 am
- Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
I guess it never affected me so I never noticed that. It would have been annoying. The first time I played the 1st Ed game, the rulebooks were already there.TheNobleDrake wrote:I have to, so I apologize:cthulhudarren wrote:Oh I certainly agree that too many rules supplements spoil the game, but I think there could be a happy medium. 1st Ed did it pretty well.
There is certainly room for at least one "official" monster manual, and spells seem difficult to write IMHO.
1st Edition was completely off its rocker in regards to rule supplements - you needed 3 just to have the game in the first place, and they have release dates spanning 3 years for just those.
"Here's your monster manual" Yay! ...wait, where do I figure out how to make a character? "In the D&D game boxed set, until next year at least."
"Here's your player's handbook" Finally, I can make an actually A D&D character. ...where's the section for advanced DM stuff? Lemme guess, another book next year?
"Yup."
I'd still like an official DCC monster manual and more spells, at least. But of course it isn't my decision to make.
- Skyscraper
- Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:23 pm
- Location: Montreal
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
I assume that my post won't change anything to "the plans", but I agree with the OP.
Not that I want to be swarmed with splat books, mind you.
But the monster, patron and spell lists in the core book are short. And some magic items would be fun to have too.
This is not the first time this topic is brought up and one response that seems to surface each time is "we don't want more rules because we like the flux that results from the present rules". The flux is fine; all I'm saying is that I'd like more content based on the same rules, not more rules.
I also hear people saying "you can design your own monsters/magic items/spells/patrons" using either other RPGs as inspiration, or using this or that random generator. Sure, I can even probably design my own rules and my own game
The point of buying stuff is to not have to do it yourself. And random generators do... random stuff. I'm not looking for random stuff, I'm looking for flavorful ready-to-use playtested game elements that will help me design my adventures.
I also hear the comments that original monsters and other stuff are present in adventures. Ok, that's great, but if I want monsters I don't feel like buying a bunch of adventures just to loot a few monsters per adventure. This is obviously not a solution, with all due respect.
So simply put me in the group of people that say "this game is great, but I'd be a client for more content". If "the plans" are also in a flux, perhaps enough people voicing this opinion will eventually lead to the yearly book including what is being asked, who knows?
Cheers!
Sky
Not that I want to be swarmed with splat books, mind you.
But the monster, patron and spell lists in the core book are short. And some magic items would be fun to have too.
This is not the first time this topic is brought up and one response that seems to surface each time is "we don't want more rules because we like the flux that results from the present rules". The flux is fine; all I'm saying is that I'd like more content based on the same rules, not more rules.
I also hear people saying "you can design your own monsters/magic items/spells/patrons" using either other RPGs as inspiration, or using this or that random generator. Sure, I can even probably design my own rules and my own game
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
I also hear the comments that original monsters and other stuff are present in adventures. Ok, that's great, but if I want monsters I don't feel like buying a bunch of adventures just to loot a few monsters per adventure. This is obviously not a solution, with all due respect.
So simply put me in the group of people that say "this game is great, but I'd be a client for more content". If "the plans" are also in a flux, perhaps enough people voicing this opinion will eventually lead to the yearly book including what is being asked, who knows?
Cheers!
Sky
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.
Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.
Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.
Re: So GG is not putting out more DCC rulebooks?
I too would be a client for more content. I'm especially hungry for a bit more detail on the gods. I like what Raven_Crowking did in this post, for example:Skyscraper wrote: So simply put me in the group of people that say "this game is great, but I'd be a client for more content". If "the plans" are also in a flux, perhaps enough people voicing this opinion will eventually lead to the yearly book including what is being asked, who knows?
http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 476#p80476
In the DCC rulebook, I think Goodman does a nice job of "fleshing out" a small number of Patrons, in order for a judge to get a feel for how to do more. I'd like to see a similar set of examples for Gods and thier relationships to Clerics (favored spells for followers, what they consider to be sinful, special forms of disapproval, etc.).
Terry Olson