goodmangames wrote:Wow. First of all, thanks for all the dialogue. This kind of constructive debate is great to read. It's always interesting to realize how an action can be perceived. I have what I think are good reasons for the "level decisions," but reading the comments here makes it obvious that there will be gamers who infer alternate causality to the decision...and that might not be good.
Based on the thread here, I'll focus on getting the full 10 levels into the core book. The beta rules are already with the editor so they'll only have 5 levels. Perhaps that's good; you can get your PCs to level 5 then pick up with 6-10 from the core book. I think the most important point made in this thread is that, "players shouldn't have to wait for the next book to level up." I don't want a group to reach level 6 after continuous exciting DCC RPG play, only to then realize they can't level up until the next annual comes out! On the flip side, I personally don't feel like I have enough high-level play experience in DCC RPG (yet...) to properly do up the "broader" 6-10 rules right. By that, I mean the non-mechanical rules - things like fighters building keeps and wizards facing off with their patrons to establish true dominance once and for all. So for levels 6-10, the core rules may focus strictly on mechanics and encourage the judge to develop his own higher level plots. Which we all did fine in 1974-1979, so I think that may be okay.
I do indeed intend to include a slower advancement rate. My original idea was that it would take at least a year of once-a-week play to reach level 5. On the flip side, I think some of the ideas on the other leveling thread are brilliant - specifically, the "mini-levels" are a great way to provide "morsels" to a different generation of gamers. I'm personally a fan of level titles, and I think the concept of these "mini-levels" might finally be a great way to integrate titles properly into the XP system. What if each class had three different titles per level, and those titles represented level sub-strata? A level 1 thief is a bravo, then a thug, then a robber; a level 2 thief is a murderer, then a fence, then a racketeer; and so on. Each title could confer one "bonus of choice" from the next level (choose hit points, attack mod, spell, save, whatever), and then the third and final advancement carries the rest of the "full level benefit." Again, too late to catch the beta, but definitely something to play with.
A couple other random points:
CONVERTING CHARACTERS / CHARACTER POWER LEVEL COMPARISONS (from AD&D, from 1E, from 3E, from C&C, etc.): I don't really know how hard the conversion will be, since I haven't personally tried. Personally I believe conversions from other 3E-derived systems will be roughly compatible, due to the fundamentally same "power scale" of many concepts: same 1 HD per level, same general range of attack bonuses and save bonuses per level, etc. But how the power scale of spells precisely compares...not sure. We'll find out when someone decides to do a lot of conversion.
MIGHTY DEEDS OF ARMS:
To confirm what GnomeBoy said, that is correct on Mighty Deeds of Arms: the warrior has to succeed in his basic attack roll, AND roll sufficiently high on his extra "small die." You guys are right that the odds of rolling high on the "small die" get a lot higher at high levels. But you also have to hit opponents with higher armor classes! What I like about the "small die" at higher levels is that it allows the fighter to score lots and lots of cool moves against weaker foes -- the level 5 warrior will indeed constantly succeed in his Mighty Deeds when fighting hordes of kobolds -- but it balances against the higher ACs of more difficult foes. Against an AC 24 dragon, the Mighty Deed is still only going to succeed every third or fourth attack.GnomeBoy wrote: I just want to check in on MDAs: You have to roll a three or better on your small die and you have to hit the thing that you're performing the maneuver against. As you level up, you're also probably going to be facing some stuff that's harder to hit than the stuff you fought at 0-level or 1st level. So even if your MDA roll becomes "easy" to make, you may not be hitting any more often (and maybe less). That might be slicker than an AD&D fighter (depending largely on your DM), but compared to 3e, I'm not so sure.
The Free RPG Day module is at the printer now, and the beta rules are with the editor. It will be a lot easier for us all to talk after June 18, when we're all looking at the same rules set!
In the meantime, here's the cover for the Free RPG Day module. Full details going up on the web site tomorrow. It includes two adventures, both short and sweet: a level 0/1 adventure by me, and a level 5 module by Harley. Both are a lot of fun. And wait till you guys see the maps. We spent a lot of time thinking about the art direction there. Doug knocked them out of the park -- they take "illuminated map" to a whole new level...
Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
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Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
This was on page 5 of the "10-level" thread and I was afraid that folks would miss it. I see this as significant because so many posters voiced an opinon and Joseph heard them. How many game companies are willing to do that?
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Thanks for doing this. Even more excited and hopeful about this game now.
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
That was my big motivation. For whatever reasons, the 0-5 level discussion was generating a lot of negativity and it seemed like a lot of folks were losing interest in the project. Since Joseph made his post in the middle of an older thread, I was afraid that people wouldn't see it and wouldn't know that he had reversed his decision on the level range.bholmes4 wrote:Thanks for doing this. Even more excited and hopeful about this game now.
Again, how many RPG companies ever do this? Three cheers for Goodman Games!
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Thanks I would have missed this for sure.
"When creating your character,choose an ethical system that can justify nearly any fit of temper, greed, cowardice, or vindictiveness, for example, Chaotic Violent..."
THE PROTOCOLS, ADVANCED PROTOCOL #10
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Ok back on board for at least a definite PDF. Hopefully we can get a copy of this starter module to check things out.
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Agreed. Many thanks to Joseph on this move. I appreciate it a great deal and will have a much easier time getting my group on board with DCC as a result. There's little doubt that DCC will become a regular at our table.finarvyn wrote:Again, how many RPG companies ever do this? Three cheers for Goodman Games!
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
You do realize that if the game starts at level 0 and goes up to level 10 then the game really has 11 levels.
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Awesome!mshensley wrote:You do realize that if the game starts at level 0 and goes up to level 10 then the game really has 11 levels.
But I ask? Could we make the cover MORE black?
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Good point, that hadn't even occurred to me. And because Goodman Games is so generous, you get the 11th level free! That's right folks, buy 10 levels and get the 11th FREE! What a deal!!mshensley wrote:You do realize that if the game starts at level 0 and goes up to level 10 then the game really has 11 levels.
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Both beta rules and starter module should be out at roughly the same time, in June. This is in time for Free RPG day!Sunderstone wrote:Ok back on board for at least a definite PDF. Hopefully we can get a copy of this starter module to check things out.
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
- finarvyn
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Gotta love those "Spinal Tap" references! And any "buy 10 get 1 free" is too good to pass up! (Well, I pre-ordered so I guess I bought 'em all whether they are free or not. )goodmangames wrote:Good point, that hadn't even occurred to me. And because Goodman Games is so generous, you get the 11th level free! That's right folks, buy 10 levels and get the 11th FREE! What a deal!!mshensley wrote:You do realize that if the game starts at level 0 and goes up to level 10 then the game really has 11 levels.
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
It's our latest slogan: Goodman turns your game up to 11!
//H
//H
The lucky guy who got to write some Dungeon Crawl Classics.
DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.
DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Great slogan. Should be on a flyer with a Frazetta-like Barbarian and a scantily clad woman on an altar.Harley Stroh wrote:It's our latest slogan: Goodman turns your game up to 11!
//H
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
The class levels all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, fighter eleven, cleric eleven, wizard eleven and...
Oh, I see. And most games go up to ten?
Exactly.
Does that mean it's better? Is it any better?
Well, it's one better, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on level ten on your class. Where can you go from there? Where?
I don't know.
Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Put it up to eleven.
Eleven. Exactly. One better.
Why don't you just make ten better and make ten be the top level and make that a little better?
[pause] DCC RPG goes to eleven.
Oh, I see. And most games go up to ten?
Exactly.
Does that mean it's better? Is it any better?
Well, it's one better, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on level ten on your class. Where can you go from there? Where?
I don't know.
Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Put it up to eleven.
Eleven. Exactly. One better.
Why don't you just make ten better and make ten be the top level and make that a little better?
[pause] DCC RPG goes to eleven.
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Lol.mshensley wrote:Why don't you just make ten better and make ten be the top level and make that a little better?
[pause] DCC RPG goes to eleven.
Player: "I back out of melee range to get away from the orc..."
DM: "You can't. He has a polearm."
Player: "Wha?! But I can move 30 feet?"
DM: "No you can't. Because you see... It says 30". That's inches. You can only move 30 inches a round."
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Great news, thank you very much for listening to us!Based on the thread here, I'll focus on getting the full 10 levels into the core book.
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
I spit out my soda!geordie racer wrote:Lick my Lovecraft
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
I make a real effort to not simply post something silly, but in light of the Spinal Tap vibe, how could I leave this behind?
...
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.
Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters
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Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.
Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Someone put that on a T-Shirt, pronto!geordie racer wrote:Lick my Lovecraft
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Agreed x10!smathis wrote:Someone put that on a T-Shirt, pronto!geordie racer wrote:Lick my Lovecraft
//H
The lucky guy who got to write some Dungeon Crawl Classics.
DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.
DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.
Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
Well this IS enlightening... and invigorating! All in one. I'm frankly quite amazed. And that's a good thing. I suppose in a strange way this type of response is a symptom of the OSR. This hobby of ours has significantly evolved over the last couple of years, and one result is that companies like Goodman Games have boldly stepped up to the plate and hit the ball out of the PARK!
Or created a new dial that goes to '11'!
I'm really excited to hear about level 10 being included in the game. I mean REALLY stoked.
Thanks Joseph
Or created a new dial that goes to '11'!
I'm really excited to hear about level 10 being included in the game. I mean REALLY stoked.
Thanks Joseph
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Re: Joseph Goodman speaks out on levels
A FREE bonus level!!! Why didn't you say so. I'll preorder it right now.goodmangames wrote:Good point, that hadn't even occurred to me. And because Goodman Games is so generous, you get the 11th level free! That's right folks, buy 10 levels and get the 11th FREE! What a deal!!mshensley wrote:You do realize that if the game starts at level 0 and goes up to level 10 then the game really has 11 levels.
"When creating your character,choose an ethical system that can justify nearly any fit of temper, greed, cowardice, or vindictiveness, for example, Chaotic Violent..."
THE PROTOCOLS, ADVANCED PROTOCOL #10
THE PROTOCOLS, ADVANCED PROTOCOL #10