Appendix O?

[Stainless]

Random thought (apologies if this has already been noted).

Can we assume the DCC RPG will have an Appendix O (no matter what the alphabetical sequence it falls in)? It seems like poetic justice to me, plus it would be interesting to see what subsequent books have been inspirational.

[mshensley]

My Appendix O-

Cornwell, Bernard - "Grail Quest" series, "Saxon Stories" series, Agincourt
Hines, Jim - "Goblin Quest" series
Hobb, Robin - "The Farseer Trilogy" series
King, William & Long, Nathan - "Gotrek and Felix" series
Martin, George R. R. - "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, "Tales of Dunk and Egg" series
Scott, Martin - "Thraxas" series
Wagner, Karl Edward - "Kane" series

[geordie racer]

Glen Cook - the 1st three 'Black Company' novels
Roger Zelazny - 'Lord of Light'
Barry Hughart - 'Bridge of Birds'
Guy Gavriel Kay - 'Tigana'
Tad Williams - 'War of the Flowers'
Steven Erikson - 'Tales of Bauchelain and Korbal Broach'
Scott Lynch - 'The Lies of Locke Lamora'
Harry Harrison - 'Captive Universe'
China Mieville - 'Perdido Street Station'
Elizabeth Moon - 'The Deeds of Paksenarrion'
Jack Vance - 'Lyonesse'
Robert E. Howard - 'Kull' compilation.
Gene Wolfe - The Book of the New Sun
........and loads of Clark Ashton Smith

[mythfish]

Glen Cook - the 1st three 'Black Company' novels
Scott Lynch - 'The Lies of Locke Lamora'
Gene Wolfe - The Book of the New Sun

Mine would include these as well.

Plus Tad Williams' "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" series.
Joe Abercrombie's "First Law" trilogy.
Possibly the first Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and possibly Card's Alvin Maker books.

[Harley Stroh]

Random thought (apologies if this has already been noted).

Can we assume the DCC RPG will have an Appendix O (no matter what the alphabetical sequence it falls in)? It seems like poetic justice to me, plus it would be interesting to see what subsequent books have been inspirational.

Well played, sir.

//H

[Black Dougal]

How about the following?

Ursula K. LeGuin - the 'Earthsea' series
Brent Weeks - the 'Night Angel' trilogy

I will add more as I think of them...

[goodmangames]

Love the idea. DCC RPG will have lots of appendices. When I'm writing I always end up with random bits of gaming miscellanea that go best in appendices. As for "appendices of inspirational material," DCC RPG does include an Appendix N, which recaps the original list (for benefit of newer audiences who may not have seen it) and offers a bit of commentary. I'm not sure I want to include new literary inspirations but I do find it interesting how many non-literary sources also inspired D&D. This forum has already identified several of them, especially movies (e.g., Hammer Horror films, The Raven, etc.) and certain old comics. I've considered trying to compile a list of those inspirations, for use by parties who wish to seek them out, but, well, at the moment it's just an idle thought that I haven't done any work on.

[Ravenheart87]

Including movies and comics in the Appendix N is welcome, especially with commentary. Appendix O - only if you can't fill that one or two page with better stuff, ie.: a few more spells or monsters. What I would add to such appendix:

• Gene Wolfe - The Book of the New Sun: one of my favourites, way too good to not include it!
• 13th Warrior: a movie about vikings and an arab fighting wildmen in the cold north, what not to love about it?
• Valhalla Rising: dark, gloom, bloody, and One-Eye would be an ideal sword & sorcery "hero".
• Army of Darkness: I hope I shocked a few people with this one...
• Bal-Sagoth: symphonic black metal band whose songs tell the stories of the Antediluvian world.

Honestly, I would even include some video games that I can recommend for sword & sorcery/pulp fantasy fans - Die by the Sword, Severance, Heretic-Hexen series, Might & Magic series, Wizardry series, and even Quake I for it's Lovecraftian atmosphere...

[mshensley]

No movie has inspired D&D sessions more than Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[finarvyn]

Cornwell, Bernard - "Grail Quest" series, "Saxon Stories" series, Agincourt
Hines, Jim - "Goblin Quest" series
Hobb, Robin - "The Farseer Trilogy" series
King, William & Long, Nathan - "Gotrek and Felix" series
Scott, Martin - "Thraxas" series

Barry Hughart - 'Bridge of Birds'
Guy Gavriel Kay - 'Tigana'
Tad Williams - 'War of the Flowers'
Steven Erikson - 'Tales of Bauchelain and Korbal Broach'
Scott Lynch - 'The Lies of Locke Lamora'
Harry Harrison - 'Captive Universe'
China Mieville - 'Perdido Street Station'
Elizabeth Moon - 'The Deeds of Paksenarrion'
Gene Wolfe - The Book of the New Sun

Although I've read most of the original Appendix N, it's sort of sad when I realize that I haven't read any of these. (I removed the ones I've read.)

Are these books all as good as the Appendix N books and really classics, or just fun books that folks like to read?

[mshensley]

Although I've read most of the original Appendix N, it's sort of sad when I realize that I haven't read any of these. (I removed the ones I've read.)

Are these books all as good as the Appendix N books and really classics, or just fun books that folks like to read?

Well, in the books I listed I would categorize them like-

Awesome - Must Reads:
Cornwell, Bernard - "Grail Quest" series, "Saxon Stories" series, Agincourt
Hobb, Robin - "The Farseer Trilogy" series

Cornwell writes really good historical fiction. I've learned a lot about vikings, early england, and the hundred years wars from his books. Very gritty stuff.

Hobb writes really moving fantasy. I didn't like it at first but the characters really drew me in. This is one of those writers you'll either love or hate.


Fun Reads that have a lot of application towards D&D:
Hines, Jim - "Goblin Quest" series
King, William & Long, Nathan - "Gotrek and Felix" series
Scott, Martin - "Thraxas" series

Of these, the Thraxas books are my favorites. They are about a fantasy private eye in a very D&D-like setting (it even has vancian magic). Very funny stuff that I've reread multiple times. They are rather hard to find though and the author had some sort of mental disorder which caused him to quit writing them after eight books.

The Gotrex and Felix books are for WFRP, but all in all they are just fun, hack and slash fantasy.

And anyone who plays D&D should find the Goblin Quest books to be fun reads. Very funny with a lot of good ideas for use in games.

[Stainless]

I didn't expect this to turn into a bibliography in itself, but there are some really interesting leads here. I was mainly trying to seed the idea of an in-joke in the dcc rpg when it comes out, namely having an apparently incongruous appendix called Appendix O.

Anyway, of the Bernard Cornwall books, I have never been able to stick with most. I find him, especially his Sharpe books, to be childishly gratuitously and needlessly detailed in his descriptions of violence. However, I did find "Gallows Thief", "Fallen Angels" and "A Crowning Mercy" to be outstanding novels from the point of view of plot development. Lots of ideas and general principles on how to create plots and characters.

In fact, I would argue that good non-fantasy fiction can be as, if not more, useful in teaching DMs how to create interesting NPCs, developing engrossing plots, weaving in unexpected plot turns, etc.

[mntnjeff]

How about Jack Whyte's series 'A Dream of Eagles'? I think this is what the movie King Arthur (w/ Clive Owen and Kiera Knightly) was based on. The movie wasn't all that great, but the books are fantastic.

I think Tad Williams series 'Shadowmarch' is also pretty good. I just love the way he portrays the fey.

Anyone tried Joe Abercrombie? His series 'The First Law' is coined Fantasy Noire...but it's got a very very gritty feel to it.

[Machpants]

I didn't expect this to turn into a bibliography in itself, but there are some really interesting leads here. I was mainly trying to seed the idea of an in-joke in the dcc rpg when it comes out, namely having an apparently incongruous appendix called Appendix O.

Anyway, of the Bernard Cornwall books, I have never been able to stick with most. I find him, especially his Sharpe books, to be childishly gratuitously and needlessly detailed in his descriptions of violence. However, I did find "Gallows Thief", "Fallen Angels" and "A Crowning Mercy" to be outstanding novels from the point of view of plot development. Lots of ideas and general principles on how to create plots and characters.

In fact, I would argue that good non-fantasy fiction can be as, if not more, useful in teaching DMs how to create interesting NPCs, developing engrossing plots, weaving in unexpected plot turns, etc.

Well the Arthurian trilogy by Cornwell is my favourite set of books full stop. A step above his Sharpe novels and just so well written, paced and characterised. I disagree on the 'gratuitous/childish' description of combat, that is what some one like Derfel (protagonist of Arthurian trilogy) lived for, and thus has a place on the books 'stage'. However I don't think it is of the same sort as App N, as it is a quasi-historical novel... not a snake cultist in sight! Or any magic.

But I would certainly recommend it for anyone to read, along with Gates of Fire... two stories where the author writes far beyond any of his other offerings.

[mshensley]

Anyone tried Joe Abercrombie? His series 'The First Law' is coined Fantasy Noire...but it's got a very very gritty feel to it.

I just ordered The Blade Itself from Amazon.

[mshensley]

Well the Arthurian trilogy by Cornwell is my favourite set of books full stop. A step above his Sharpe novels and just so well written, paced and characterised. I disagree on the 'gratuitous/childish' description of combat, that is what some one like Derfel (protagonist of Arthurian trilogy) lived for, and thus has a place on the books 'stage'. However I don't think it is of the same sort as App N, as it is a quasi-historical novel... not a snake cultist in sight! Or any magic.

You really need to read his Saxon story books. The main character is a Conan level bad ass. Yeah, it's historical. That just means you actually learn something while reading his stories of blood, fire, and steel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saxon_Stories

Also, his books on the hundred years wars will really make you see why longbows are so scary and why D&D really should have an Archer class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grail_Quest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azincourt_%28novel%29

Now that I think of it, I got his Agincourt book on cd for listening to in the car on my trip to Gencon last year . It was the perfect way to travel.

[Harley Stroh]

Cornwell is amazing. He's one of those guys that makes you ashamed to call yourself a writer.

//H

[geordie racer]

If you like Bernard Cornwall, both he and I recommend Robert Low's 'Oathsworn' Viking saga, starting with The Whale Road.

[finarvyn]

Another question, and in a way a stupid one ... with the books mentioned in this thread, how much do they resemble "Appendix N" books and how much are they "just darned good fantasy" books?

I ask because if the goal of DCC is to replicate an "Appendix N" flavor, it would be nice if books discussed are similar in feel. For example, the George R. R. Martin "Ice and Fire" books are really great reading, but they don't "feel" much like Leiber or Howard to me. (As I said, I haven't read quite a few on this thread so I don't know what to expect out of them.)

[mythfish]

Another question, and in a way a stupid one ... with the books mentioned in this thread, how much do they resemble "Appendix N" books and how much are they "just darned good fantasy" books?

I ask because if the goal of DCC is to replicate an "Appendix N" flavor, it would be nice if books discussed are similar in feel. For example, the George R. R. Martin "Ice and Fire" books are really great reading, but they don't "feel" much like Leiber or Howard to me. (As I said, I haven't read quite a few on this thread so I don't know what to expect out of them.)

Agreed. The Martin books are my all time favorite fantasy novels, but they're not remotely Appendix N in feel.

Though I think the point of Appendix O was not so much to extend Appendix N in terms of "the same flavor" but to extend along the lines of "books that have influenced fantasy roleplaying since Appendix N". Or "books that are good influences" for the same.

[geordie racer]

Another question, and in a way a stupid one ... with the books mentioned in this thread, how much do they resemble "Appendix N" books and how much are they "just darned good fantasy" books?

I picked these novels because most of them reminded me of the spirit/tone/creativity of some of the Appendix N novels I've read:

Barry Hughart - 'Bridge of Birds' - a sage conducting an investigation in an Ancient-China-That-Never-Was.
Guy Gavriel Kay - 'Tigana' - the legacy of a spell cast by a high level magician and a plot against him.
Tad Williams - 'War of the Flowers' - contemporary musician displaced into faerie realm where there is a magical version of the industrial revolution.
Steven Erikson - 'Tales of Bauchelain and Korbal Broach' - two evil sorcerers, humourous
Scott Lynch - 'The Lies of Locke Lamora' - thieves, intrigue, magic in a faux renaissance Italy
Harry Harrison - 'Captive Universe' - Aztecs find that their valley is within a spaceship.
China Mieville - 'Perdido Street Station' - weird and wonderful.
Elizabeth Moon - 'The Deeds of Paksenarrion' - just because it's the most D&D novel ever written, a Paladin's story. (And yes, much better than Quag Keep)
Gene Wolfe - 'The Book of the New Sun' - epic science fantasy, great use of language.

[mshensley]

If you like Bernard Cornwall, both he and I recommend Robert Low's 'Oathsworn' Viking saga, starting with The Whale Road.

I read The Whale Road a couple of weeks ago. It was almost as good as the Cornwell stuff.

[mshensley]

Though I think the point of Appendix O was not so much to extend Appendix N in terms of "the same flavor" but to extend along the lines of "books that have influenced fantasy roleplaying since Appendix N". Or "books that are good influences" for the same.

Yeah, I think an Appendix O would be more about what modern fiction is influencing your gaming today. There really isn't an overarching theme to Appendix N books other than that's the books that the authors of D&D read and were influenced by. LotR and Elric are polar opposites for example.

George Martin is the most popular fantasy author (for adults) of the past decade or so. Like him or not, he is the Tolkien of our time and is very influential in the world of fantasy.

[Harley Stroh]

If you like Bernard Cornwall, both he and I recommend Robert Low's 'Oathsworn' Viking saga, starting with The Whale Road.

Awesome. Thank you. I'll check it out.

//H

[Black Dougal]

I have not read Bernard Cornwell, but I will have to check him out.

I absolutely love GRRM, but after having to wait two years for "A Storm of Swords" and then five years for "A Feast for Crows" I decided that I am going to buy them in hardcover as they are published and not read the rest of the series until it is complete. It is just too hard to spend years jonesing for the next installment.

I seriously recommend Brent Weeks. If you haven't read him, pick up the box-set of "The Night Angel Trilogy". I picked up the first volume on a whim and ended up losing a ton of sleep over the following week as I had to finish the three books. I am not sure if this series fits in with the overall "feel" of Appendix N, but it is excellent High Fantasy.
http://www.amazon.com/Night-Angel-Trilo ... 787&sr=8-3