Unused Magic Items & Magic Item Shoppes

[uriel222]

So, in a traditional D&D game, players can sell off found magic items for cash, and then buy the items they want from their friendly, neighbourhood item store. This is really part of the core rules assumption in something like 3.5 or Pathfinder, but I really don't want to use it in my DCCRPG game, because it makes magic items feel too generic.

This, however, creates two problems:

• What do you do with items from printed adventures which the characters don't want?
• What do PC's spend their money on?

I ran Sailor's on the Sunless Sea, and the surviving PC's made it out with the magic ring, the magic axe, and the fiery flail. Unfortunately, while the brand-new 1st level Wizard can put the ring to good use, the Warrior prefers a bow (his occupation was hunter, and he made some nice shots as a 0th), and the last PC is a Halfling!

I want treasure to feel special, so I don't want they taking this stuff down to the local magical pawn shop, but right now it just sits there, and I can see this problem getting worse as I move through published adventures.

Without just changing what they find into exactly what they need, how do other Judges handle this?

[Raven_Crowking]

My recommendation is to let the players deal with it. There are no magical pawn shops. They decide what to do with loot they do not want. In some cases, destroying it is the best option. In other cases, giving it to an ally is a good option. The local lord may think more kindly of the adventurers if they give him a magic axe. Less kindly, of course, if after several uses it melts his face, as magic items in DCC sometimes do.

[GnomeBoy]

They can be an attractive lure to acquiring henchmen and hirelings.

[jozxyqk]

With regard to "unused" magic items, my PCs generally hide them somewhere in the hope that they will some day come in handy ("Keep it secret! Keep it safe!").

As to PCs spending their money, I'm a big proponent of the "Conan" rule. Under that system, it is assumed that every time the PCs arrive in a town, they blow their entire stash of gold, gems etc on wine, women, song and other consumables, emerging completely broke. It eliminates tedious accounting and gives the PCs a good reason to go out on that next adventure. I think it's pretty consistent with the Appendix N spirit too. Seems like Fafhrd and Mouser were in a perpetual feast/famine cycle.

[Gameogre]

I play a much more D&D oriented DCC RPG game. Tons of magic Items all over the place. Now instead of the +5 longsword and high end its the +3 Longsword but same principle. Magic items do tend to be more bizarre(even that +1 mace might for instance burst into arcane fire verse any type of Frog).

I do have magic item shops,well really one shop but still....The shop buys low and sells high (pays 20% what you can buy it for in that same shop next week). Potions and scrolls are the top sellers.

Anything mid level or higher is never sold (the owner of the store is amassing powerful magics to fuel a spell that will raise Cthulhu but.....what else did you expect in a DCC RPG world?


One of these days the party will tip the scales and set in motion a horrid adventure!

[uriel222]

Anything mid level or higher is never sold (the owner of the store is amassing powerful magics to fuel a spell that will raise Cthulhu but.....what else did you expect in a DCC RPG world? One of these days the party will tip the scales and set in motion a horrid adventure!

I'm speechless. That is awesome!

[uriel222]

As to PCs spending their money, I'm a big proponent of the "Conan" rule. Under that system, it is assumed that every time the PCs arrive in a town, they blow their entire stash of gold, gems etc on wine, women, song and other consumables, emerging completely broke. It eliminates tedious accounting and gives the PCs a good reason to go out on that next adventure. I think it's pretty consistent with the Appendix N spirit too. Seems like Fafhrd and Mouser were in a perpetual feast/famine cycle.

You make a good point. Money is for downtime adventures and carousing!

[finarvyn]

They can trade magical items to the local wizard or cleric in order to get spells cast for them or a stash of healing potions. While it's not a fully stocked magic shoppe, I like to assume that there is a local who sometimes can acquire things for trade.

[Karaptis]

The DM giveth, the DM taketh away! Get them stolen or have them all robbed at knifepoint. Make the items cursed. If any of my players complain of too many magic items, they will regret it.

[cjoepar]

My characters do not all have the exact same alignment as the party's cleric, so they tend to donate any unwanted magic items to his church as a tithe for the healing he provides.

The party's wizard has also used an item as a sacrifice to gain a +5 on a spell check.

The party in my game hasn't thought to do it yet, but giving an item to a powerful Lord or Clerical figure is sure to make life easier for the party in many ways.

[Skyscraper]

Except for a few healing potions, my players encountered only three magic items during the course of an approximately 12-15 session long game. Each had significant powers and also some significant drawbacks.

The first was clearly chaotic and evil, the broken tip from the lance of a demon. They've tried to be rid of it, without success. First, they went to put it to the bottom of the lake, but the player who did so had to roll a will save, that he failed: he simply couldn't. He hid it under his bed and that weapon ultimately killed one of their own and almost killed two others - while in the hands of a PC They feared it. It was great

One was a sword from an ancient warrior from the frozen wastes - one that battled the demon's cultists centuries ago. They were glad to have it. The warrior used it, and the first time he encounted a demon, the sword revealed itself. Snow and wind rose (inside the house!), his skin became white and his hair appeared frozen, and he went into a bererker fury!

The third was the holy symbol taken by the cleric from the high priest's dead body. The holy symbol had interesting powers, but it also came with the understanding of the heavy burden associated with being a representative of the faith - both allegorically and literally: the small symbol felt like a heavy load on the cleric's neck, who lost 1d6 points of agility upon donning the holy symbol (he rolled a 5).

Who would sell any one of these? The cleric of course would never sell a holy symbol of his own faith. The warrior was now linked to his sword such that his very identity was now changed (with white skin and ice in his hair). And the evil lance blade: they knew that they needed to put that somewhere where it could not do arm. But where?

My approach to magic items was along those lines. None of the magic items was just a trival item. Any other item would have been the same. Give them few, but make them meaningful. Both in their powers and in the story. They won't even think about selling the items.

As a side note, they could have opted to keep and use the evil lance blade. They in fact did, for a while, until someone got killed. It was a powerful weapon (not over the top), but it required blood. And when you had none from enemies to give to it... Well you get the picture. Still, I'm sure some players would have kept it.

[Skyscraper]

Oh, I forgot: they also found two books that could be used to invoke patrons, and one spell book. Each had interesting consequences on the story of the game also. It's interesting that the wizard chose to keep the patron book used to invoke a demon, while he chose to try to get rid of the lance blade (from the same demon - although he didn't know that, he could easily have figured it out, they found both in the same desecrated temple).

[cthulhudarren]

Well done Skyscraper!

[jozxyqk]

Wonderful approach, Skyscraper. The sort of thing I wish I could make myself do. My problem has been that I don't really have time to write my own adventures, and have largely been using modules (official and otherwise) which seem to be comparatively chock full of magical gear. Maybe not to the extent that a D&D game would be but still enough that magic starts to seem less epic than in your post.

[Raven_Crowking]

Wonderful approach, Skyscraper.

+1d24

[Skyscraper]

Thanks all for the nice words.

My problem has been that I don't really have time to write my own adventures, and have largely been using modules (official and otherwise) which seem to be comparatively chock full of magical gear. Maybe not to the extent that a D&D game would be but still enough that magic starts to seem less epic than in your post.

My two cents of where I'm at in GMing a campaign, and how items fit into that:

I indeed write my own stories, but I have been doing a very important part of improvisation during my games. The more I'm GM, the more I wing it during sessions. My approach is now as follows: I prepare a detailed story of what has happened up to the moment where the adventure/campaign starts. This includes a chart of important historical events. I also prepare a cast of characters, NPCs, with their names and what their motivations are. Rarely will I'll prepare stats for my NPCs (I don't think I did for a single one in this last game). I do have a book from D&D3E entitled "NPCs and Allies" that I use, in combination with the stats from the DCC book, to come up with quick stats for important NPCs or monsters, when required.

I of course prepare some sort of initial mystery or mission that the PCs will have to accomplish. I'll prepare a few locales, often with maps that I steal from other material, on which I hand-write the purpose of the rooms.

Finally, I prepare a first scene for the campaign/adventure.

Then I wing it. I try to react to what the players do. I often have no idea of the treasure or the people that will populate a given area, even as the PCs step into it. I try to get a feel of how the players themselves feel. If they are nervous, I'll make the area scary. If they feel bold, there will probably be combat. And so on.

The items fall into the improvisation. I consider them as just another part of the adventure.

For example, while I had prepared the lance tip in advance as it was part of the story, I did not know where or with whom they would find it. The sword and the holy symbol were both created on the spur of the moment during game sessions: I took out the DCC book and went to the magic items section and the mercurial effects section, and assigned powers and side effects that I found fit the story there and then.

This really is somewhat complex, and I admit that it took some time to get there in my life. But I find it very rewarding. It requires mostly to be open-minded to the players' mood and intention - maybe this is something that comes easier for you than it did for me.

By the way, they know I improvise a lot, I tell them. I'm not trying to do "as if everything was set in advance" and then fumble behind my screen to find info as quickly as possiblem, as I once did. (In fact, I don't use a screen ) When required, I'll tell the players "ok give me a minute while I think about what you told me and what that means in the story".

Having a strong background story is my guide in the whole process. It gives me guidance to determine what happens. When I find it suitable for the PCs to find a hidden compartment with a magic item therein, it's because the area was gradually set up as that of a leader of old, a respected and feared warrior. When they search for secret compartments and roll a high search result, I can't help but conclude that they found something, and that something is going to be interesting. I pick up the book and go at it. Since most of my locales are not resting places for warriors of old, I rarely need to come up with items.

Improvisation is a tough nut. I do a lot of it, I took drama courses, and while it's easy to improvise, it's tough to improvise an interesting game. I think that a good, lengthy preparation of the background and the locales for the adventure helps a lot. Then, comes the tough part: free yourself of any idea you have of what my be upcoming. One way to go about this, is that any preconceived idea you might have had about how events might unfold, is now a prohibited area, ruled out. This means that you must NOT do anything that you have thought of in advance. This is a tough rule to abide by, as you are your only judge. With time, you come to accept some stuff you thought about in advance, when you believe that your mind is free enough to allow it.

And I'll repeat: items will fit into that gaming approach, no different than any other game element you might think up. You'll know when it's time to have them find an important item, because you'll feel it. Items are like combat, investigating, social interaction, ... They're just part of the story.

As for using commercial modules, I think it is a great way to minimize the prep work if you want to avoid writing background for your game, and it provides maps and NPCs too. I think it's a great way to obtain essentially the same result, as long as the module is to your liking. The trap with commercial modules (or any module), according to my approach, is that they usually have pre-set events or areas with creatures and items and traps in them. I find that to be problematic. I want a trap to spring only when I feel that it's relevant, not because it's written in a room description. I want a secret door to exist when I feel every player's head inclined over the small map I'm drafting, and they're all scratching their heads and wondering what that strange tapestry on the wall is.

What you can do with pre-made modules, is sift through them to take out the cast of important characters for your use. Understand from the module, or determine, their motivations and their goals, and then have them interact with the PCs whenever you find that it would be cool and/or fit the story, notwithstanding where they are supposed to be located according to the module. As for magic items in the module, I'd ask myself in each and every case: what is this magic item? Is it relevant to the plot? If not, I'd ditch it. If so, it means it comes with a story. What is that story? Who's item was this, up to now? That of an evil wizard? Then what price is to be paid for it, how did the wizard get it, what will be the item's drawbacks? Or is is that of an undead lich? I wouldn't want to put that around my neck if I were a PC: as a GM, I'd consequently have that undead lich magic item be cursed with something absolutely terrible, that would lead to the players NEVER AGAIN putting any similarly obtained item around any of their PC's neck. Was it the sword of a dutybound paladin? Then it probably serves the PCs, but perhaps comes with strict rules associated with the paladin's god's code.

As a further example, in my recent campaign, the PCs explored the tomb underneath the village temple, now desecrated and home to evil demon cultists. In that tomb they were attacked by undead protecting the cultists' lair. Those undead were none other than the former clerics of the temple, long dead and now raised by evil magic. Many of those walking corpses had golden rings and necklaces on them. Maybe some were magic? I never had to determine that. The PCs took none. I had established a very gloomy ambiance in the tomb, and they were scared of the god's wrath, if they took the items that even the cultists dared not take. What would have happened had they picked up any item? I honestly do not know, because the question never came up. When they were discussing this topic, I wondered about it shortly, but always forced myself to stop thinking about it. As I now think back, it would have been cool to either have a strong curse befall them, or to have them pick up some items that would somehow have been beneficial for all of them, sort of a benediction from the god for their help in freeing the temple from the demons. How the players would have reacted when they put on the items, would probably have been key to me determining what the items were.

You still reading? Boy, that was a long rambling. Sorry Just sharing my thoughts, hopefully it helps stir some interesting conversation and others can share their thoughts also.

[Rostranor]

Nice post man, very insightful.

[jozxyqk]

Sky--

Thanks for the post, and the thoughtful explanation of your DMing methods. It's interesting that your ideas when it comes to magic items are so exactly in accord with mine, but your thoughts on general DMing practice so diametrically opposed! There may be a nugget of wisdom there that would explain why I have often failed at maintaining what I feel is the "right" amount of magic items in my games, but I can't quite tease it out right now.

I wish I had more time to put my thoughts together, but my basic take is this: It hurts my suspension of disbelief when I get a sense that the DM is too explicitly choosing to insert things in the world because it would be fun (or cool, or epic, or whatever). For example, I find it jarring if I begin thinking that a secret door will suddenly appear if the players happen to spend a bunch of time searching in a particular place and the place feels sort of secrety or old. Or that fighting some monsters it doesn't really matter what we (the players) do or roll, because the DM will just have them go down at some point that feels appropriate to him. Some DMs also swear by fudging rolls in order to enhance story or drama. Personally, it drives me crazy.

In contrast, when the DM is playing from a set adventure or from random tables, I feel like the world is real. We will only find a secret door if there actually was one written down there before we ever entered the room, and we were clever or lucky enough to search in the right place. If there was a trap in a hallway and we stroll down thoughtlessly, it will spring whether anyone thinks the story needs a trap at that time or not. If the monsters just keep rolling crits, we will be obliterated.

So I try to DM with my experiences as a PC in mind. Just my 2 cents.

Let the conversation continue!

[Skyscraper]

I wish I had more time to put my thoughts together, but my basic take is this: It hurts my suspension of disbelief when I get a sense that the DM is too explicitly choosing to insert things in the world because it would be fun (or cool, or epic, or whatever). For example, I find it jarring if I begin thinking that a secret door will suddenly appear if the players happen to spend a bunch of time searching in a particular place and the place feels sort of secrety or old. Or that fighting some monsters it doesn't really matter what we (the players) do or roll, because the DM will just have them go down at some point that feels appropriate to him. Some DMs also swear by fudging rolls in order to enhance story or drama. Personally, it drives me crazy.

In contrast, when the DM is playing from a set adventure or from random tables, I feel like the world is real. We will only find a secret door if there actually was one written down there before we ever entered the room, and we were clever or lucky enough to search in the right place. If there was a trap in a hallway and we stroll down thoughtlessly, it will spring whether anyone thinks the story needs a trap at that time or not. If the monsters just keep rolling crits, we will be obliterated.

I hear you.

I roll attacks and damage in front of the players, and I do have maps for some areas they visit - any underground complexes for example. The players know I improvise a lot of stuff, I just don't think that they know that I actually improvise secret doors and treasure. I will try to ask them, and see how they feel about it. Your point is good.

Sky

[jozxyqk]

I hear you.

I roll attacks and damage in front of the players, and I do have maps for some areas they visit - any underground complexes for example. The players know I improvise a lot of stuff, I just don't think that they know that I actually improvise secret doors and treasure. I will try to ask them, and see how they feel about it. Your point is good.

Sky

I dunno -- I'm not sure I would ask. It sounds like you have a great game going. I think I got soured on it when I had one DM where it was obvious enough that the players doing crazy sh*t just to see if they could "break" the world where everything they did (no matter how stupid) led to some "interesting" outcome and turned out fine. I doubt you're that transparent. Asking them might break the illusion! Be careful! Also, as I suggested, it seems likely to me that your more conscious doling out of treasure has enabled your world to maintain a "magic is cool and dangerous" feel rather than the more common "The PCs collect enough magic items that there needs to be a magic item broker" feel.

[Skyscraper]

Hmm, maybe you're right. I'll think about it. I like to be pretty transparent with my players and if they don't like something, I hope they tell me. In fact, I ask them to

So if it's a problem that I improvise to generate secret doors and treasure, maybe I shouldnt. My gaming habits are in a constant evolution so I take what I can at any given time and put that in my bag (o' tricks) and use it to add to my intuition when it comes time to start a new game.

At the same time, as you say, maybe the illusion is just what's needed here. I'll ponder this further.

Meanwhile, two other very good GMs in our group are going to sequentially make us play some Call of Cthulhu and some Game of Thrones. But it's already been asked that we return to DCC and the PCs that the players have presently, eventually.

[Gameogre]

The secret to DMing on the fly and creating the adventure as you go is never letting on that is what you are doing.

That means prep work. I have made several notebooks at the table with scribbled adventure ideas,stories,songs,poems,traps,maps,monsters,thousands of names and npc character traits ANYTHING that might help during a game. I constantly pause for a second and take a moment to (read) something. During play I throw out dozens of adventure leads and go with whatever the party wants to do.

I also write down dang near everything so later on I remember and build on what happened before.

Thousands of npc's/locations like this.

The Inn of the Ill Fated Calf(camel street) is owned and run by Gornia Weathclove (greying red hair,matronly women,all business,hates halflings,husband Bernard disappeared three years ago taking the mountain pass to Cliffwell,hidden entrance discovered by party in cellar leads into the undercity due to past owners).

Also once you come up with something on the fly run with it.Don't change it mid-stride just because the party out thinks you. If the big new criminal boss gets one shoted by the party roll with it. Just add complications like the boss was really the better of two evils and now another criminal mastermind is free to take over and hopefully not so easily dispatched! But let it all happen slowly,don't counter the pc moves, enhance them and build on them to make better adventures.

I guess I can't stress that enough, Fly by the seat of your pants play can be a lot of fun but remember you are not working against the party. It's to easy to use the free form nature of it to counter the party. Don't do that,it just leads to frustration and unhappy game play. This is why most players HATE the idea of the GM creating on the fly,too often inexperienced GM's fall into the trap of using it as a way to counter the players goals.

[Skyscraper]

@Gameogre: I think I agree with you, with one caveat.

What I find, in a game as in real life, is that many people think they can get away by telling lies, but most people that are witness to a lie sense it (at least in-person; media reported information is another matter). I.e. good liers are incredibly rare. So while we might think of ourselves as cleverly making up something that we try to smoothly incorporate into the game as if it had been written down weeks ago (aka improvising), players are likely to sense it, because they'll feel it, they'll feel how differently you behave compared to other times. I have tons of anecdotes to support this personal theory, including a DM we had who fudged rolls regularly (we knew), my poker games with friends (incredible how two of us might finally go all in either because we both have full houses or because we both only have a pair of 2's - in both cases, we feel the other's confidence); and so on.

So my impression is that players might not understand how much I improvise and they might not pick up all that I improvise, but if I try to hide it, they'll know that I do it even if, like anyone lying, I think that no one is picking up on it.

What I now realize is that in my recent stint, I didn't try to hide it. I simply did not state it out during play.

**************

Last weekend I had the players go through a post-mortem of our DCC game, and the feedback for the game was very good. The entire improvisation issue was a non-issue to them. They did not realize it happened, or in the rare instances where they did, they did not care the least.

Among the strong points of the game that came up, was the story, the setting and the ambiance around the table. Of those, I am exclusively responsible for the second only. The first and third were cooperative.

So in the end, the impro really yielded something that everyone apparently had fun with. Including myself.

I think that by not trying to hide the fact that I was improvising, it actually had the effect of not blowing my cover, so to speak.

Examples of things I did:

- taking the time to think before giving an answer ("let me think about this for a moment"). This might seem inappropriate if you want to do "as if" you're not improvising, but it never raised an eyebrow.

- changing my mind on what happens if a player clarifies his intentions.

- making a magic weapon on the spur of the moment: the players thought that the weapon had been "written into the adventure", but that I had planned all along to make them roll on the tables to see what powers it had.

This did not seem strange to them, it seems.