DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by thogard »

Raven_Crowking wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:44 pm By RAW, a Halfling fighting with two weapons automatically hits and crits on a 16. Armor Class be damned!
I stand corrected. And, that's awesome!
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Judge_Yossarian »

Raven_Crowking wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:44 pm By RAW, a Halfling fighting with two weapons automatically hits and crits on a 16. Armor Class be damned!
But what about an unnatural 16? For example, my halfling with +2 STR rolls a 14, and gets +2, for a total of 16. I call that a crit if it hits, but not an auto-hit. That's how I got such a high percentage in my earlier post. The rules seem to be ambiguous on that point, only mentioning warrior expanded threat ranges but not bonuses to rolls.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Vort »

My understanding is the intent of crits are that they be natural. With the default case, only a nat 20 crits (not a modified roll to get 20); logically follows that only a nat 16 would crit in the Halfling's case and natural rolls in the expanded crit range for a Warrior. Allowing modified rolls to crit takes away some of the rush from rolling that number, especially if you're allowed to burn Luck to modify that roll thus guaranteeing a crit.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by GnomeBoy »

Yeah. Natural dice results are what you’re looking for, for crits, fumbles, & Deeds.

Luck burn can raise the total result, perhaps turning a miss into a hit, but you can’t buy a crit (by RAW).
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Raven_Crowking »

Judge_Yossarian wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:10 pm
Raven_Crowking wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:44 pm By RAW, a Halfling fighting with two weapons automatically hits and crits on a 16. Armor Class be damned!
But what about an unnatural 16? For example, my halfling with +2 STR rolls a 14, and gets +2, for a total of 16. I call that a crit if it hits, but not an auto-hit. That's how I got such a high percentage in my earlier post. The rules seem to be ambiguous on that point, only mentioning warrior expanded threat ranges but not bonuses to rolls.
Page 60:

"Unlike other characters, when fighting with two weapons, a halfling scores a crit and automatic hit on any roll of a natural 16."

(emphasis mine)
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by BanjoJohn »

Yeah, I said that last page. hehe. Hmmm. Maybe halflings should be allowed to burn luck to get a critical hit? Might make them better at higher levels.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Pesky »

I’m super late to this party, but I figure I’ll still throw in a few coppers.

In most cases, the halfling is perhaps not as an inspiring combatant as the warrior or dwarf, but not all cases. For those interested in the efficacy of the halfling combatant, you may find the following noteworthy:
Given that "adjusted AC" is target's AC minus your to-hit bonus, you are more likely to get a hit attacking with two weapons (than with one) if:
1. you are a halfling, and adj. AC is less than 14 or greater than 18.
2. your agility is greater than 17, and adj. AC is less than 17; note that crit. chances are reduced for warriors, however. 3. you are not a halfling, your agility is 16-17, and adj. AC is less than 14.
4. you are not a halfling, your agility is 12-15, and adj. AC is less than 13.
5. you are not a halfling, your agility is 9-11, and adj. AC is less than 10.
6. you are not a halfling, your agility is less than 9, and adj. AC is less than 7.

Most importantly, with regards to #1, if you’re up against something with an AC so large that your party must autohit to damage it, the halfling will hit at least once per round 12% of the time. Everyone else, 5% of the time. Details here:
http://spellburn.com/2016/01/17/episode ... rry-olson/
(See the link for “ Dual-Wielding Probabilities from Spellburn Episode 26”)
In short, don’t underestimate the autohit on nat 16.

I empathize with the class not meeting some expectations. If I were to modify them, I’d probably give them:
1. D24 or d30 saving throws...
2. And perhaps “halfling fury”:
Halfling Fury: if a halfling successfully hits a single target with both of the round’s attacks, they can burn 1 point of luck to immediately attack the target again. If that hits, they can burn 2 points of luck to attack the target again. And so on, until they miss or run out of luck.

With that being said, I don’t want to modify them. That class holds a soft spot in my heart. I always have fun playing them, and I always have fun judging them...especially when the associated player is somewhat “judicious” with how (and on whom) they spend their luck.

I was fortunate enough for my first DCC con game to be at Goodman’s table play testing a funnel (that unfortunately never saw the light of day). Of my 4 PCs, 3 died pretty quickly, but my halfling barber survived! With twin razors he made Sweeney Todd look like a pansy! He dominated until the final encounter, when he lost a Will save and cut out his own heart. C’est la vie.

Thanks everyone on this thread for a fun read!
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by BanjoJohn »

There are two "events", each has a 1/16 chance to happen. 256 total combined outcomes, 15/256 for first attack to crit, 15/256 for the second attack to crit, 1/256 for both to crit. 11.7% for either the first or second attack to crit, 0.39% for both to crit.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Jim Skach »

Pesky wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:55 pm I was fortunate enough for my first DCC con game to be at Goodman’s table play testing a funnel (that unfortunately never saw the light of day). Of my 4 PCs, 3 died pretty quickly, but my halfling barber survived! With twin razors he made Sweeney Todd look like a pansy! He dominated until the final encounter, when he lost a Will save and cut out his own heart.
This needs to be explored further - perhaps at GaryCon.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Pesky »

@BanjoJohn: Exactly. That’s where my 12% to autohit at least once per round comes from.

@Jim Skatch: Yeah, ask Joseph; I will not be at Gary. Stephen Newton was also at the table, as was Steve Bean. That’s the limit of my memory, I’m afraid.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Jim Skach »

Pesky wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:54 am@Jim Skach: Yeah, ask Joseph; I will not be at Gary. Stephen Newton was also at the table, as was Steve Bean. That’s the limit of my memory, I’m afraid.
:(

Joseph won't be there either, last I heard...

:( :(
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Jim Skach »

Pesky wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:55 pm I’m super late to this party, but I figure I’ll still throw in a few coppers.

In most cases, the halfling is perhaps not as an inspiring combatant as the warrior or dwarf, but not all cases. For those interested in the efficacy of the halfling combatant, you may find the following noteworthy:
Given that "adjusted AC" is target's AC minus your to-hit bonus, you are more likely to get a hit attacking with two weapons (than with one) if:
1. you are a halfling, and adj. AC is less than 14 or greater than 18.
2. your agility is greater than 17, and adj. AC is less than 17; note that crit. chances are reduced for warriors, however. 3. you are not a halfling, your agility is 16-17, and adj. AC is less than 14.
4. you are not a halfling, your agility is 12-15, and adj. AC is less than 13.
5. you are not a halfling, your agility is 9-11, and adj. AC is less than 10.
6. you are not a halfling, your agility is less than 9, and adj. AC is less than 7.

Most importantly, with regards to #1, if you’re up against something with an AC so large that your party must autohit to damage it, the halfling will hit at least once per round 12% of the time. Everyone else, 5% of the time. Details here:
http://spellburn.com/2016/01/17/episode ... rry-olson/
(See the link for “ Dual-Wielding Probabilities from Spellburn Episode 26”)
In short, don’t underestimate the autohit on nat 16.

I empathize with the class not meeting some expectations. If I were to modify them, I’d probably give them:
1. D24 or d30 saving throws...
2. And perhaps “halfling fury”:
Halfling Fury: if a halfling successfully hits a single target with both of the round’s attacks, they can burn 1 point of luck to immediately attack the target again. If that hits, they can burn 2 points of luck to attack the target again. And so on, until they miss or run out of luck.

With that being said, I don’t want to modify them. That class holds a soft spot in my heart. I always have fun playing them, and I always have fun judging them...especially when the associated player is somewhat “judicious” with how (and on whom) they spend their luck.

I was fortunate enough for my first DCC con game to be at Goodman’s table play testing a funnel (that unfortunately never saw the light of day). Of my 4 PCs, 3 died pretty quickly, but my halfling barber survived! With twin razors he made Sweeney Todd look like a pansy! He dominated until the final encounter, when he lost a Will save and cut out his own heart. C’est la vie.

Thanks everyone on this thread for a fun read!
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by DivineWannabe »

Weisenwolf wrote: Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:52 am
Well to start with if the Halfling already has 16+ DEX it’s not much of an improvement at all; no other skill has it's effect reduced in this way.

If you're generating characters as the book suggests, then how often are you going to have a halfling with 16+ Agility? Not very often at all!
I just ran a simulation using Purple Sorceror's 0-level character generator, and got exactly ZERO halflings with 16+ Agility out of ONE HUNDRED randomly generated 0-levels. (In fact, out of those 100 samples, I only had TWO characters of ANY race that had a Agility of 16+.)
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by BanjoJohn »

DivineWannabe wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:49 pm
Weisenwolf wrote: Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:52 am
Well to start with if the Halfling already has 16+ DEX it’s not much of an improvement at all; no other skill has it's effect reduced in this way.

If you're generating characters as the book suggests, then how often are you going to have a halfling with 16+ Agility? Not very often at all!
I just ran a simulation using Purple Sorceror's 0-level character generator, and got exactly ZERO halflings with 16+ Agility out of ONE HUNDRED randomly generated 0-levels. (In fact, out of those 100 samples, I only had TWO characters of ANY race that had a Agility of 16+.)
Yeah sometimes I wonder, speculate, theorize, that the purple sorceror generator is broken, but I know that random numbers are random. I just never seem to randomly get a character with more (+) stats than (-) stats lol.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by DivineWannabe »

Well, the ones I generated on Purple Sorceror seem to be generally in line with the 0-level characters I have rolled by hand. I cannot say I have rolled over a hundred by hand, but I did roll 20 by hand a few months back.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by herecomethejudge »

Very late to the game here, but FWIW I've seen a lot of Halflings played, and I've never felt like they were underpowered to the point of disadvantage. To me, they play exactly like what they are: basically a Hobbit. They can sneak and hide easily, fit into small spaces, have infravision and reduced odds of fumbling, save allies with big Luck bonuses, fight well with two hands, and speak an extra language. They may not be Dragonkin, but they can hold their own!
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by The Angry Monk »

"The halfling’s Luck modifier can apply to any roll made by an ally: attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, spell checks, thief skills, and so on" (DCC RPG 61).

Am I interpreting this correctly? If a party has a Halfling in the party with 16 Agility, then all allies that are "nearby and visible" gain a +1 to all their rolls.

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by GnomeBoy »

Their ability to burn Luck for others, not their Luck Modifier (i.e., +1 for having a 13 Luck, etc.).
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by CapnZapp »

The Angry Monk wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:07 am "The halfling’s Luck modifier can apply to any roll made by an ally: attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, spell checks, thief skills, and so on" (DCC RPG 61).

Am I interpreting this correctly? If a party has a Halfling in the party with 16 Agility, then all allies that are "nearby and visible" gain a +1 to all their rolls.

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed.
A more involved response than GnomeBoy's...:

Taken out of context, it does indeed sound like you gain bonuses for simply letting the Halfling stay in the party. But consider the whole paragraph:

Third, a halfling’s luck can rub off on those around
him. The halfling can expend Luck to aid his allies.
The ally in question must be nearby and visible to
the halfling. The halfling can act out of initiative
order to burn Luck and apply it to the ally’s rolls. The
halfling loses the Luck, and the ally receives the benefit.
The halfling’s Luck modifier can apply to any roll made
by an ally: attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, spell checks,
thief skills, and so on.

This should make you realize the "modifier" discussed here is "it" as referenced by the fourth sentence: the benefit of burning Luck. Perhaps "modifier" was a poor choice of wording, but that is all there's to it. ("modifier" is pretty established as the static bonus or penalty derived from ability scores. I totally see how a reader like Angry Monk could be confused. Better would have been if the final sentence said "The halfling's Luck benefit...")
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Bobjester »

Agreed. It makes no sense for a halfling with a Luck score of 10 (modifier of 0) would then burn a point of Luck score to give someone else (or the halfling's self) a modifier of 0 to a roll.

Seems a better interpretation would be:
"The halfling's burned Luck point can modify any roll made by an ally: attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, spell checks, thief skills, and so on."
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by CapnZapp »

Bobjester wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:50 pm Seems a better interpretation would be:
"The halfling's burned Luck point can modify any roll made by an ally: attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, spell checks, thief skills, and so on."
Writing clear unambiguous rules is hard.

In this case, the writer clearly tried to avoid referencing the burnt point of Luck, since each point so burned yields two points of actual bonus.

How about:

"The benefit of a halfling burning Luck for an ally can apply to any roll made by that ally: attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, spell checks, thief skills, and so on."

I totally see why such a formal-sounding phrasing didn't immediately come to the DCC writer at the time, though.

Regardless, the important takeaway is to not rule Halfling characters just radiate bonuses for free (at least not because you believe that is what the rules intend. If you decide to rule Halflings that way anyway, despite knowing that's not intended, more power to you).
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by The Angry Monk »

Thanks for the clarification, folks. You're right. Once I put in context to the rest of the paragraph, the sentence makes sense. Happy New Year!
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