Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

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Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by BaophraT »

Hello everybody,

So far there are no elves in my group of players. That said, I'm still wondering how to introduce/play this race in my campaign setting. I'm torn between the desire to make them a real fairy people (like in the book of Dunsany, among others) not responding to human laws (time passing differently, links with the plane / dimensions of the fairies etc.) and the desire to ensure however a playable class responding to the same criteria of evolution as the other classes.

Planning to play a module focused on elves in some time, I would be happy to know your views on the subject. What kind of elves do you have in your world ? And why ? What compromise did you find between pre-Raphaelite romance and the playability of an elf character from a more down-to-earth perspective ?
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Father Goose »

This is a great question and one I too struggle with answering. I keep wanting to do something more, something special, but all that happens is half formed vagaries swirl about and fail to coalesce into a recognizable (or usable) form.
So far, I too am elf free. I keep defaulting in my assumptions due to no clear alternative, but I don't really like elves as written. So, while I don't have anything of value to add to your situation beyond empathy and solidarity, I do look forward to seeing how others respond. Perhaps it will stimulate some creativity in me too.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by GnomeBoy »

When I most recently played an Elf, I had the character refer to non-Elves as "mortals" and basically tried to make the Elf as 'otherworldly' as possible -- within just one adventure, so not all that much, though I think I could certainly have taken it further if it had been a campaign.

The obstacle I find in general is that even wanting to make them something other than what 50 years of D&D has dictated, players swing back to what they know.

The Queen of Elfland's Son adventure certainly makes them otherworldly, hewing in the direction of Dunsany.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by BaophraT »

So, while I don't have anything of value to add to your situation beyond empathy and solidarity
> thks :)
The obstacle I find in general is that even wanting to make them something other than what 50 years of D&D has dictated, players swing back to what they know.
> it's true that the weight of Ad&D / D&D plays a huge role in the collective references, whether it's the Judge or the players.

In fact, I just had a lot of questions about how to present elves in my game setting after starting to read an old D&D module in which it talks about an "elf village"...
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Bobjester »

No elves among my players either. I had some 0 level pre-gens to help the group get started on DCC, and I used the 0 level PC sheet with 4 characters per sheet, perhaps 10 or so.
ALL players picked a 4 character sheet that didn't have elves. A couple of players vocally rejected the elf characters.

I have no idea why they're actively anti-elf. It might be a trend in 5e or social media? Perhaps they looked at the DCC quickstart guides and were immediately turned off by the way elves are handled in DCC? Baffling!

I should add that they are fine with dwarves & halflings, and a couple of players preferred halflings to other character types, and this may be so because of their affinity with Luck.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by CapnZapp »

I'm running a Sword & Sorcery themed campaign (think Conan the Barbarian), and must give praise to the excellent suggestions in the Death Slaves of Eternity level 0 funnel adventure:

It is easily the simplest and yet best advice for what to do with the demihuman classes. As you might know, much S&S takes place in worlds with few to no demihuman races (suitable for player characters anyway).

So while I have no Elves (or Dwarves or Halflings), I do have Cultists, Soldiers, and Raiders in my campaign*! :)
*) actually only one of each but still
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Ravenheart87 »

I like my elves as melnibonéans - a decadent arcane race long past its glory looking for entertainment in cruelty and hedonism before finally swept away by the young barbaric races.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Father Goose »

Ravenheart87 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:08 am I like my elves as melnibonéans - a decadent arcane race long past its glory looking for entertainment in cruelty and hedonism before finally swept away by the young barbaric races.
I like that. How does that approach impact the party dynamic in a mixed group?
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by BaophraT »

I like my elves as melnibonéans - a decadent arcane race long past its glory looking for entertainment in cruelty and hedonism before finally swept away by the young barbaric races.
> I also like this idea but it doesn't completely fit my idea of my game campaign setting. I'm trying to make the Elves seem more like a chaotic people but more frivolous and detached from human affairs than cruel or decadent.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by BaophraT »

I'm running a Sword & Sorcery themed campaign (think Conan the Barbarian)
> do you use Howard's world as it is or have you developed a similar but more personal framework ?

It's funny to see the sometimes underestimated influence that certain works can have on the way we design modules or environments.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Bobjester »

From random generators found hither & yon, I have a country of "Blood Elves" with no explanation or details, and a random encounter generator created a race of primitive, alien, blind elves:

"Fae Humanoid
Skin Color: translucent to pale gray
Weapons: Primitive; short bow & dagger
Appearance: Blind: (1) white eyes, (2) eyes overgrown with skin, (3) ceremonial patches, (4) eye sockets empty with a 90% chance of “sight” through alternate source: (1) echolocation, (2) acute sense of smell, (3) heat sense, (4) ESP
Unusual Properties: They wear strange animal skins not from this world. "

The Blood Elves will most likely resemble the Melnibonean model mentioned above. This other primitive elven race is for an adventure that I am struggling to write. They will be the featured cultural remnants of a lost civilization reduced to random forest encounters.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Father Goose »

I bought this recently:
https://www.exaltedfuneral.com/products/moon-elves-pdf
It has some interesting elements that you could mine to redefine elves and elven culture, depending on what kind of setting you are using for your game.
I can see using it for both DCC and Troika! games.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Bobjester »

Father Goose wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:51 pm I bought this recently:
https://www.exaltedfuneral.com/products/moon-elves-pdf
It has some interesting elements that you could mine to redefine elves and elven culture, depending on what kind of setting you are using for your game.
I can see using it for both DCC and Troika! games.
Huh. What I am writing right now will eventually tie into a trip to the world's moon to rescue a queen. This moon is where my feral "first" elves come from.

Looks like another case of "Simpsons did it!" Damn.

I might have to get this. :?
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Father Goose »

Bobjester wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:40 pm Huh. What I am writing right now will eventually tie into a trip to the world's moon to rescue a queen. This moon is where my feral "first" elves come from.

Looks like another case of "Simpsons did it!" Damn.

I might have to get this. :?
I am willing to bet your ideas are sufficiently different, though you may draw some additional inspiration from the linked zine.
I'd love to read whatever you write on the subject, if it's something you intend to make available outside of your home game.
On a somewhat related note, my copy of Star Crawl arrived in the mail today. I'm toying with the idea of borrowing some of the 3 Galaxies flavor from Rifts for a Star Crawl game. Introduce the Star Elves and some of the other elements of the United Worlds of Warlock, perhaps. I thought the Moon Elves might fit into that picture somehow.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Bobjester »

Father Goose wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:18 am
Bobjester wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:40 pm Huh. What I am writing right now will eventually tie into a trip to the world's moon to rescue a queen. This moon is where my feral "first" elves come from.

Looks like another case of "Simpsons did it!" Damn.

I might have to get this. :?
I am willing to bet your ideas are sufficiently different, though you may draw some additional inspiration from the linked zine.
I'd love to read whatever you write on the subject, if it's something you intend to make available outside of your home game.
On a somewhat related note, my copy of Star Crawl arrived in the mail today. I'm toying with the idea of borrowing some of the 3 Galaxies flavor from Rifts for a Star Crawl game. Introduce the Star Elves and some of the other elements of the United Worlds of Warlock, perhaps. I thought the Moon Elves might fit into that picture somehow.
I might share them here in a thread when I get them written. I write slower than Moses' Grandma, so it'll be a bit. :?

I'd probably write faster if I didn't get distracted by shiny or fall asleeeee.........
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by CapnZapp »

baophrat wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:21 am
I'm running a Sword & Sorcery themed campaign (think Conan the Barbarian)
> do you use Howard's world as it is or have you developed a similar but more personal framework ?
Since this has nothing to do with elves, I took the liberty of reposting your question in a more relevant thread:

https://goodman-games.com/forums/viewto ... 86#p125886

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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by CapnZapp »

baophrat wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:52 pm
I like my elves as melnibonéans - a decadent arcane race long past its glory looking for entertainment in cruelty and hedonism before finally swept away by the young barbaric races.
> I also like this idea but it doesn't completely fit my idea of my game campaign setting. I'm trying to make the Elves seem more like a chaotic people but more frivolous and detached from human affairs than cruel or decadent.
The Netflix Witcher show presents elves as some sort of "same same but different" to humans.

Can't say I'm super clear on whether their obsessive nature is because they're freaking out about a recent dearth in births, or whether they are like that all the time. (Could be that they're basically humans with fake ears in times when they're able to reproduce regularly)

I don't see any reason why that take on "Elves" couldn't work with DCC rules. Especially since the main drawback of being an Elf, the allergy to iron, is done away with already in the rulebook (just have a mithril sword and the iron business is basically negated).

PS. Not that it's the topic of this thread, but I never understood the way DCC handles its iron allergy. In a game unafraid to cripple characters in many and varied ways, they give one of the core character classes a crippling handicap only to basically remove it again in the very next sentence. Wut?
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Father Goose »

CapnZapp wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:36 am
PS. Not that it's the topic of this thread, but I never understood the way DCC handles its iron allergy. In a game unafraid to cripple characters in many and varied ways, they give one of the core character classes a crippling handicap only to basically remove it again in the very next sentence. Wut?
This assumes non-ferrous weapons are made available regularly, which they don't have to be. You can reinforce the drawback by making such weapons rare. Conversely, when there is a magic weapon found in treasure, but it is made of iron or steel, the elf will surely feel the drawback. The hindrance is only "basically removed" if you make non-ferrous weapons and armor easily obtained.
The elf is only guaranteed access to one of each, and they may not be the best the party can obtain in treasure.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by GnomeBoy »

CapnZapp wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:36 am ...Especially since the main drawback of being an Elf, the allergy to iron, is done away with already in the rulebook (just have a mithril sword and the iron business is basically negated).
Yeah, it's all fun and games until the adventure is set within the body of a giant iron golem... :mrgreen:
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by CapnZapp »

Father Goose wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:19 am This assumes non-ferrous weapons are made available regularly, which they don't have to be. You can reinforce the drawback by making such weapons rare.
Absolutely I can do that. You are one hundred percent correct. Whether Judges will actually do it is a different story however.

After all, the DCC ruleset does not waste any time trivializing the drawback (as well as mithril itself!) it just introduced. In fact, it gives an Elf character its first mithril weapon even before it explains the drawback! Sends a pretty clear message to Judges, dontchathink?

Compare to the various other nasty things that can befall DCC characters, where the rules don't even bother suggesting any cures or workarounds. I stand by my assessment of not comprehending why this approach was used. It's almost as if there was one particularly loud playtester that absolutely refused to even consider Elf characters with access only to nasty iron weapons, a playtester with enough clout that just ignoring him was not an option. (An image that might not be true but is hilarious nonetheless)

All in all, everything about DCC suggests that players Judges and designers would be entirely okay with leaving Elves to handle their iron vulnerability as best they can. Yet, for some reason this was deemed unacceptable, even though the Elf class is still perfectly playable without ANY weapons or armor - since at that stage, it's still a Wizard(!) Now give it non-iron equipment and it is a Wizard with versatility. But no, for some reason the rules say right away that yes, mithril canonically and unconditionally exist in all campaign worlds, and yes, you get mithril stuff right now, despite how it must cost thousands of times more than the paltry coppers you also start the game with.

Incongruable, as the French might (not) say :)
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Ravenheart87 »

Father Goose wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:11 pm
Ravenheart87 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:08 am I like my elves as melnibonéans - a decadent arcane race long past its glory looking for entertainment in cruelty and hedonism before finally swept away by the young barbaric races.
I like that. How does that approach impact the party dynamic in a mixed group?
I can't recall having any elves ever in my party. They wouldn't be that unusual considering I had drug addict goblins, zombie amazons, and bird people - my DCC games are usually Arduin-like multiversal kitchen sinks.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by BaophraT »

In my coffee table book it says:

" Because of their sensitivity to iron (as explained below), elf characters are trained from an early age with mithril weapons. Before they depart on a life of adventure, they have acquired mithril equipment. "

And how do you handle level 0 elves in a funnel ? Do you let the player choose which piece of mithril equipment they have ? And wouldn't it be too crazy to assume that the player could choose a chain mail (for example) ?

I ask because I'm finally going to be able to taste the masochistic joys of the funnel as a player, and among my 4 level 0, 2 elves !
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by GnomeBoy »

Page 21 has your Demi-Human abilities for the Funnel. The Funnel is an abstraction of the full game for ease of play, and the iron allergy is not an issue in the funnel. Choosing Mithril equipment comes later.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by Raven_Crowking »

GnomeBoy wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:40 pm Page 21 has your Demi-Human abilities for the Funnel. The Funnel is an abstraction of the full game for ease of play, and the iron allergy is not an issue in the funnel. Choosing Mithril equipment comes later.
Page 21:
Demi-humans at level 0: Characters whose 0-level result includes a demi-human race must advance in class as that demi-human. For example, a dwarven miner levels up as a dwarf. 0-level demi-humans are able to utilize select racial traits as follows: dwarves have infravision and a base speed of 20’; elves are sensitive to iron and have heightened senses; and halflings have infravision and a base speed of 20’. Refer to the dwarf, elf, and halfling class descriptions for more information on these abilities. 0-level demi-humans speak Common plus their racial language, with additional languages gained as they level up. Just as all characters gain improved abilities and, sometimes, additional languages when they reach level 1, demi-human characters polish their natural talents through adventuring.
Emphasis mine.

Elves definitely have iron sensitivity at 0-level. They are only gain the ability to buy mithral armor and weapons at 1st level. 0-level elves do not gain a mithral anything.
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: Elves of the fairy tradition or "normal" rpg elves ?

Post by GnomeBoy »

Good catch!
(Develops the sense that Raven is looking over his shoulder)
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