Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

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Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by Fergal » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:27 pm

Hello to anyone whom reads this. I'm assuming this has been asked and answered before, so sorry in advance.

I am playing as a Level 1 Dwarf at the moment. As such, a can roll a 1d3 on top of the 1d20 and add the total of the d3 to the hit and dmg if I hit.

According to the rules, When the dwarf has multiple attacks at 4th level, the same attack die applies to all attacks in the same combat round.

And for shield bash When fighting with a shield, a dwarf always gains a shield bash as a second attack. This shield bash uses a d14 to hit (instead of
a d20). The dwarf adds his attack die to this number, as with all attacks, and can attempt Mighty Deeds of Arms involving the shield as well as his weapon.


The Shield Bash says that I can attempt a Deed with the shield, implying that I roll a new d3 when attacking with the shield. Yet the attack die rule says the same attack die applies to all attack in the same round. So, my question is how is this ruled? Would I roll the 1d20+1d3+STR while swinging with a Handaxe. And then use whatever I rolled the d3 with the Shield Bash? and if the d3 is a 3, would be able to do a deed with the Shield on top of the deed I could do with the Handaxe? Or would I roll 1d14+1d3+STR and take the new d3?

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:44 am

Think of it as "same die type"... Yes, you use the d3 with all your attacks for the Dwarf; it is their attack bonus. An Elf's 1st Level attack bonus is a +1, and you wouldn't only use it for some* attacks, you'd use it for all attacks they make. The shield bash definitely gets that bonus. At 1st Level they can often miss with the shield bash, but as they level-up, it gets more potent...


----------------
* That said, there could be specific circumstances that the Judge rules you don't get your attack bonus. I've never seen such circumstances, but maybe they exist.... it's the nature of DCC.
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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by Starbeard » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:00 am

I think the wording is intended to confirm that while your normal attacks may not use the same attack die type (one with a d20 and the other with a d14), they still use the same deed die type for all of your attacks.

If you used the same result of the deed die, then all of your deeds of the round would succeed or fail together, which isn't great: "My dwarf will try to disarm the troll with a sturdy whack of his mace… Deed Die rolls a 2, drat! Okay, for my dwarf's other attack against the second troll, he'll… oh, it doesn't matter, he rolled a 2 anyway. Okay, for his shield bash against the second troll, he'll… ah, nevermind."

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by BanjoJohn » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:48 am

I think you'd only be allowed to attempt one deed per turn anyways. A warrior with an extra action die to use for an extra attack each turn would still only get to perform one deed a turn, so a dwarf with a regular attack and a shield bash will only get to attempt one deed a turn as well.

As for adding bonuses together.

If you are level 1, roll 1d3 for your deed die only once for the attack round.
Roll 1d20 for your regular attack.
Roll 1d14 for your shield bash.

Both your regular attack, and shield bash, get the same "attack bonus" from your deed die, as well as a "damage bonnus" from your deed die.

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by thogard » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:18 pm

RAW a warrior/dwarf can attempt a reed with any attack, so I wouldn't limit to one per round.

I waver a bit on the multiple attack deed die issue. I'm leaning at the moment towards this: one deed die for the round if it makes sense as one action or deed attempt (say, the dwarf hitting high with their axe and low with their shield for a trip, or a warrior trying a pushback or blind with both attacks), individual for separate actions if applicable (for example, a disarm of one opponent followed by a throw of another, roll the deed die for each).

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:22 pm

I think Deeds are much on a par with spells. One good roll on a Color Spray (1st Level spell) can take out and/or hinder multiple foes. Two Deeds in a round can hope to do that (takes a succession of good rolls). True, Warriors can't lose their Deeds -- but they don't have options like Spellburn, either.
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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by BanjoJohn » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:41 am

RAW, it says declare A deed before any attack, but not declare A deed for EVERY attack. So I see a gray area based on RAW as to whether you can do more than one deed or not, but everything I read implies that you declare A deed, one deed, not one per attack.

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by GnomeBoy » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:24 pm

So even when a Warrior gets a second Action Die, they still only get one Deed?

I'd much prefer to see Warriors having attained that level of prowess really be able to show off and REALLY stand out from their lower-leveled versions....
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Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by BanjoJohn » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:12 pm

When your warrior reaches level 5, getting a second action die, what you get is..
1d20 for first action, 1d14 for second.
1d7 for deed die
18-20 threat range
1d24 on the crit table 5


Compared to say.. a level 2 warrior
1d20 for action die
1d4 deed die
19-20 threat range
1d14 on crit table 3

So being a higher level warrior, you "show off" by having a higher chance of critical hits than a lower level warrior, even more powerful critical hits because of rolling a larger die on a higher tier crit table. Your deed die is higher, so instead of having a max +4 to hit/damage, you have a max of +7 to hit/damage. And, if you do roll 5-6-7 on your deed die, chances are you're going to hit with your second attack and deal that much more damage.

And, if you are using the mighty deed tables starting on page 89, or are just being inspired by this and your Judge allows more powerful deed effects based on the deed die roll, you get access to even more powerful mighty deed effects by being able to roll higher with your deed die.

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by GnomeBoy » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:55 pm

Okay.

For me, it comes down to this: the real beauty of the Mighty Deed of Arms is in getting players engaged in ways that simply "attacking" doesn't. It engages their creativity and let's them push the situation — and sometimes the whole adventure — in directions I'd never have expected.

And I'm going to give them as much room to do that as possible, because in my direct experience that's always a session that's more fun to play.
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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by BanjoJohn » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:04 am

I can support that idea. The book is only a guide and not a commandment.

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by Melfast » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:55 pm

Hey Fellow Gamers!

Hope everyone is doing well.

Sorry to necro this thread, but this is a topic that I have been researching to find a semi-official answer for whether a Warrior or a Dwarf can attempt to use their Mighty Deed ability more than once a round.

I am new to DCC, and I am enjoying everything I’ve read and learned. I expect that I will be the Judge for our group when we play, and I am working through a couple of areas that were a little unclear to me as I started digging into the game. This Mighty Deed question has been one of the nagging ones for me.

I realize each Judge can decide this for their table, and that answer is right. I think there have been good arguments in this thread to allow or not allow multiple uses of the Mighty Deed in the same round.

For the benefit of anyone else running down the same rabbit hole, I have found two sources that I feel are pretty authoritative in that they come from well respected Judges, who have published official adventures for Goodman Games.

The first comes from the Spellburn podcast, where in Episode 16 (11/25/13) at around the 19 min mark, all three Judges state they run it as one mighty deed attempt per round. (At this point in the Spellburn podcast’s life, the three judges were Judge Jim, Judge Jobe, and Judge Jeffrey.) http://spellburn.com/2013/11/

The second is much more recent, and comes from an actual play legendary Judge Brendan LaSalle ran of his Neon Knights adventure (3/24/20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGT8GTYP9K8&t=969s In this actual play video, this exact situation comes up at around the 29 minute mark, where the player of a Dwarf wants to do a Mighty Deed on their weapon and shield attacks in the same round, and Brendan says it is only one Mighty Deed attempt per round – weapon or shield, but not both.

While I'm sure they are out there, I have not found a similar semi-official opinion in favor of using multiple Mighty Deeds in the same round. If you have one, please let me know.

I think I will start playing it this way, and re-look it when my players get to higher levels to see if it would be better/more fun to let them do a Mighty Deeds roll on every attack.

Happy gaming…

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by GnomeBoy » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:43 am

It seems to me that if the game was purposely designed to only allow one Deed per round, regardless of however many attacks a Dwarf or Warrior could deal in a round, the rules would specifically say "You get one Deed per round, period." This I cannot find in the book.

They do say "before any attack" multiple times. For example, a Dwarf's Action Die can be used for an attack, and their Shield Bash maneuver is an attack. Both would seem to qualify as "any attack". You aren't required to perform a Deed, so it doesn't say "all attacks" as if it were a command (because we all know folks would interpret it that way).
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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by Melfast » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:53 pm

Gnomeboy,

Your argument for the Warrior and Dwarf getting to roll a Mighty Deed die with each attack is a very good one. It is consistent with the language used in most of the places in the book: "Prior to any attack roll, a warrior can declare a Might Deed of Arms." (p. 42); "A warrior’s attack modifier is rolled anew, according to the appropriate die, with each attack." (p. 42); and "A warrior can declare a Mighty Deed of Arms, or a Deed for short, prior to any attack." (p. 88).

The only place that shows disagreement with this argument is in the section on attack modifiers on P. 42, which states: "Unlike other classes, warriors do not receive a fixed attack modifier at each level. Instead, they receive a randomized modifier known as a deed die.... The warrior always makes a new roll with this die in each combat round. When the warrior has multiple attacks at higher levels, the same deed die applies to all attacks in the same combat round."

This rule talks about combat rounds, and not attacks. It can be read to state that you make one attack modifier roll (Deed Die) per combat round, and this roll applies to all attack rolls (attacks) in the combat round. Under this interpretation, you only make one attack per round with the Deed Die (your first one). Then, at higher levels, when you get Action Dice that allow you take additional actions based on your class -- attack, cast a spell, use a specialized skill -- using your Action Die to make an additional attack, you do not get to roll a new Deed Die, although you get the attack modifier benefit of the already rolled die.

Even if the Deed Die is only allowed to be rolled once, one could still argue that a Warrior could apply the result of that Deed Die roll to all our their attacks, allowing them to get more than one Mighty Deed around if the Deed Die rolls high enough. However, Rule 1 for using Mighty Deeds on p. 88 says you have to declare your Mighty Deed before rolling your dice (plural). So, this would not seem to allow more than one Mighty Deed if the Deed Die is only rolled once per combat round.

Less persuasively, some support is given to the idea of only one Mighty Deed per round in that none of the examples in the book of Mighty Deeds, and there are many, show a character making more than one Mighty Deed at a time. This is probably more because showing multiple Mighty Deeds in the same round is not necessary to illustrate how to do a Mighty Deed, rather than expressing a limit to the number a person can do, but it is some support for the idea in that there is nothing in the examples to gainsay the interpretation of only one Mighty Deed per combat round.

It would have been nice if this was stated more clearly one way or another in the rules.

Ultimately, though, I think both interpretations are valid ways to play the game. One Mighty Deed per round may lead to less decision paralysis and time taken in each round spent trying to take full advantage of having multiple Deed rolls (and may have balance benefits); and, conversely, multiple Deeds per round may give Warriors and Dwarves a chance to shine brighter in combat with cool combination moves. In actual play, I'm not sure there will be much difference in the majority of games.

A middle-point house rule might be to allow Mighty Deed rolls on all attacks made with d20's, which would allow the Warrior and the Dwarf to make multiple Mighty Deeds starting at 7th level (or earlier if they had a way to move their secondary attacks up the dice chain).

Happy gaming...

Melfast

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:18 am

Melfast wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:53 pm
"the same deed die applies to all attacks in the same combat round."
The same die(-type) applies to all attacks. Don't go stepping down the Dice Chain or anything like that... Use the Exact Same Die™ when rolling each attack... :wink:
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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by Melfast » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:36 am

And you could interpret it that way, too... 😀

Happy gaming...

Melfast

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by kolkahenry98 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:59 am

Melfast wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:53 pm
Gnomeboy,

Your argument for the Warrior and Dwarf getting to roll a Mighty Deed die with each attack is a very good one. It is consistent with the language used in most of the places in the book: "Prior to any attack roll, a warrior can declare a Might Deed of Arms." (p. 42); "A warrior’s attack modifier is rolled anew, according to the appropriate die, with each attack." (p. 42); and "A warrior can declare a Mighty Deed of Arms, or a Deed for short, prior to any attack." (p. 88).

The only place that shows disagreement with this argument is in the section on attack modifiers on P. 42, which states: "Unlike other classes, warriors do not receive a fixed attack modifier at each level. Instead, they receive a randomized modifier known as a deed die.... The warrior always makes a new roll with this die in each combat round. When the warrior has multiple attacks at higher levels, the same deed die applies to all attacks in the same combat round."

This rule talks about combat rounds, and not attacks. It can be read to state that you make one attack modifier roll (Deed Die) per combat round, and this roll applies to all attack rolls (attacks) in the combat round. Under this interpretation, you only make one attack per round with the Deed Die (your first one). Then, at higher levels, when you get Action Dice that allow you take additional actions based on your class -- attack, cast a spell, use a specialized skill -- using your Action Die to make an additional attack, you do not get to roll a new Deed Die, although you get the attack modifier benefit of the already rolled die.

Even if the Deed Die is only allowed to be rolled once, one could still argue that a Warrior could apply the result of that Deed Die roll to all our their attacks, allowing them to get more than one Mighty Deed around if the Deed Die rolls high enough. However, Rule 1 for using Mighty Deeds on p. 88 says you have to declare your Mighty Deed before rolling your dice (plural). So, this would not seem to allow more than one Mighty Deed if the Deed Die is only rolled once per combat round.

Less persuasively, some support is given to the idea of only one Mighty Deed per round in that none of the examples in the book of Mighty Deeds, and there are many, show a character making more than one Mighty Deed at a time. This is probably more than essay writing service because of student's grades and showing multiple Mighty Deeds in the same round is not necessary to illustrate how to do a Mighty Deed, rather than expressing a limit to the number a person can do, but it is some support for the idea in that there is nothing in the examples to gainsay the interpretation of only one Mighty Deed per combat round.

It would have been nice if this was stated more clearly one way or another in the rules.

Ultimately, though, I think both interpretations are valid ways to play the game. One Mighty Deed per round may lead to less decision paralysis and time taken in each round spent trying to take full advantage of having multiple Deed rolls (and may have balance benefits); and, conversely, multiple Deeds per round may give Warriors and Dwarves a chance to shine brighter in combat with cool combination moves. In actual play, I'm not sure there will be much difference in the majority of games.

A middle-point house rule might be to allow Mighty Deed rolls on all attacks made with d20's, which would allow the Warrior and the Dwarf to make multiple Mighty Deeds starting at 7th level (or earlier if they had a way to move their secondary attacks up the dice chain).

Happy gaming...

Melfast
Of course rules should be clear from the very beginning but anyway it's good product.

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Re: Dwarf Shield Bash and Attack Die

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:49 am

kolkahenry98 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:59 am
Of course rules should be clear from the very beginning but anyway it's good product.
Actually, some of us find the little gray areas in the rules to be a feature, not a bug. They get you to stop and think about what is meant to be achieved by the rules and then what's the "best" way to do that... which is not a bad primer on being able to make rulings (as the game intends) instead of just relying upon the rules set down.

"Let the rules bend to you and not the other way around" as the saying goes.
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Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

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