Opinions on Cleric lvl 1 spell Second Sight

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Pesky
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Opinions on Cleric lvl 1 spell Second Sight

Post by Pesky »

In reading Second Sight (pg 267), the game mechanics of the 12-13 result are very different from all the other results. I'm playing with three different ideas to address this and would love some input from you all.

1. Leave it as is and not worry about it.
2. Change the 12-13 result to read exactly like the 14-17 result, but change 75% to 70%. Create an entire new spell to use the mechanics of the original 12-13 result.
3. If a PC's spellcheck is > 13, then allow the PC, if he so chooses, to use the 12-13 result instead of the result corresponding his spellcheck.

What are your thoughts?
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Merl
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Re: Opinions on Cleric lvl 1 spell Second Sight

Post by Merl »

I was pondering this spell myself the other day - it's a spell which doesn't quite seem to make sense as is.
It takes 10 minutes to cast, and yet the first result is clearly intended towards a combat situation, and in fact all the results from 12 right up to 23 mention combat rounds.

I initially was going with an option for the cleric to choose to cast the spell in a round instead of a turn, with only the first result (+4 bonus to a chosen roll) being available. However, I couldn’t see that being used much - Bless gives a longer lasting bonus (although admittedly not as great at the same result level).
Similarly, your third option would also likely never be used - who would spend 10 minutes preparing the spell, carefully timing it so that there is a combat going on just as you finish casting, only to have a single roll modified after all that time?

I'd probably go with your second option, and remove references to rounds from all the results. This then becomes a non-combat spell, to be cast when PCs are lost, confused, and indecisive - so pretty much most of the time :-)
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Re: Opinions on Cleric lvl 1 spell Second Sight

Post by Pesky »

Merl, thanks for responding! I was afraid I'd have to enter the Hall of Shame and bump my own thread :oops:
Merl wrote: It takes 10 minutes to cast...
You know, I completely missed that the casting time is 1 turn; that makes the 12-13 result stranger. I think I will replace that portion of the spell (my second option). Thanks again for the response.

It dawned on me that people may be reading this thead without having the rulebook handy, so I'll enter in what the spell results are, just in case anyone wants to chime in who couldn't before:

12-13: For one round, the cleric glimpses the future. In doing so, he gains great insight into the most effective manner to complete any action. The cleric receive a +4 bonus to a single roll of his choosing on his next round, whether it’s an attack roll, damage roll, skill check, spell check, or something else.

14-17: The cleric has a hint of possible outcomes. He must spend the following round concentrating on a choice that must be made in the next 30 minutes. For example, he may be deciding which direction to turn in a dungeon or whether to enter a room. The cleric gets a sense of whether the action will be to his benefit or harm. There is a 75% chance that the sense the cleric receives is accurate.

All 18+ results have a similar flavor as the 14-17 result, just longer durations than 30min and better chance than 75%. 32+ includes a +1 to all rolls for the cleric for the next month.
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Re: Opinions on Cleric lvl 1 spell Second Sight

Post by CapnZapp »

Nobody benefits from me trying to couch my words so let's just say it out load - the spell is useless.

Spending 10 minutes to cast a spell, and rolling 14-23 means having to immediately right now focus on a future choice. Assuming the choice and its consequences take place within 30 minutes, you STILL have a non-trivial chance of being actively led into danger. So. The spell is only useful in scenarios where you:
a) have ten minutes of spare time - at least! (you could fail to cast the spell or gain a non-augur effect which means you might need 20 or even 30 minutes to achieve the effect discussed here)
b) yet know you're about to make a choice during minutes 11-40 in the future. That alone is pretty specific and needlessly restrictive.
c) Even then, you have a 15-25% risk of getting the OPPOSITE result (remember, the only other result apart from "accurate" must be "inaccurate", and with only two results "sense of benefit"/"sense of harm", it logically follows that you're being actively led into danger or doom if the spell is inaccurate)

Folks, this is worthless.

But let's not keep complaining and instead be constructive! :) The fundamental fix is to undo Goodman Games' change to what the 75% chance means. The spell was fine in its various D&D incarnations - here's an example of how the 14-17 result might look like:

14-17: The cleric has a hint of possible outcomes. He must spend the following round concentrating on a choice that must be made in the next 30 minutes. For example, he may be deciding which direction to turn in a dungeon or whether to enter a room. There is a 75% chance the cleric gets a sense of whether the action will be to his benefit or harm. Otherwise he gets a sense of uncertainty.

Then we can improve the langue further with a commonly used clause for this type of spell:

14-17: The cleric has a hint of possible outcomes. He must spend the following round concentrating on a choice that must be made in the next 30 minutes. For example, he may be deciding which direction to turn in a dungeon or whether to enter a room. There is a 75% chance the cleric gets a sense of whether the action will be to his benefit or harm. Otherwise he gets a sense of uncertainty. Re-trying gives the same result.

This frees the Cleric from being asked to cast and recast the spell over and over again.

Finally we can make sure the spell always gives something - it is not strong enough to justify a significant risk of doing nothing even when you avoid the Failure result:

14-17: The cleric has a hint of possible outcomes. He must spend the following round concentrating on a choice that must be made in the next 30 minutes. For example, he may be deciding which direction to turn in a dungeon or whether to enter a room. There is a 75% chance the cleric gets a sense of whether the action will be to his benefit or harm. Otherwise he gets a sense of uncertainty, and may spend the following round concentrating on another choice. The spell ends once he's been given a sense of either benefit or harm. Re-trying the same or an identical choice always gives the same result.

This way, the 75% doesn't mean "25% risk of being led to your doom". Instead it means "25% risk you can't get a read on what you most want to know, but you will get a read of some other choice you might ponder". (Remember, the spell being "not useful" is covered by results 1-11: Failure)

Zapp

PS. I have not taken a stance here on what to do with the 12-13 result. I've focused on arguing the spell absolutely needs a renovation, and I hope to have shown one possible way of fixing it.
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Re: Opinions on Cleric lvl 1 spell Second Sight

Post by Raven_Crowking »

It is so useless that players salivate over getting it.

If you define any spell by minimum success, then, yes, many are useless.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: Opinions on Cleric lvl 1 spell Second Sight

Post by CapnZapp »

Raven_Crowking wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:14 pm It is so useless that players salivate over getting it.

If you define any spell by minimum success, then, yes, many are useless.
If you define success by the possibility that there somewhere exists some player that can find a use for something, then you have what I would call a "low bar". Giving everything a pass just because it exists is no fertile ground for discussing improvements.

Augury spells in general just aren't powerful enough to justify harsh and ungenerous limitations in my experience. While I'm sure there exists a player who can turn the experience of using the rulebook spell into great roleplaying, there probably is no reason to not improve the spell so a lot more players can do the same.

If you wish to defend the spell, argue its restrictions serve a purpose, or point out a loss of value somehow with my proposed changes, I invite discussion. But I would prefer we start off by agreeing the specific effect entries are needlessly restricted. After all, the basic function of getting a clue as to do or not do is oftentimes functionally worthless. Sure you might learn that the right door brings benefit, and try that door first. But many adventurers will still try the left door. After all, all the spell does is tell you that for some inscrutable criteria the potential for benefit exceeds the risk of harm. But there might still be gold in the left room; its danger might still be surmountable. Just avoiding every "woe" door will leave a lot of gold on the table (especially if 25% of results are actually good for you). And if and when you do try the left door, what have you actually accomplished? Nothing, is the answer. You could just as easily have tossed a coin as to which door to try first. And all of this presumes 100% accuracy, which the spell simply doesn't deliver.

So instead I'd like to ask you what you think of my proposed changes? :)
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Re: Opinions on Cleric lvl 1 spell Second Sight

Post by Raven_Crowking »

I am not defining success by the idea that someone, somewhere, might find a use for it. I am defining success by it being extremely useful as written. I don't think it needs fixing, because I do not think it is broken.

YYMV, and obviously does.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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