Wizard Spells

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Wizard Spells

Post by dustle »

I wasn't in on the beta-testing, but what is the reasoning behind Wizards having a list of "Known Spells" without regard to level (vs. the Cleric's "Spells Known by Level" or the early D&D systems where a Magic-User would gain a set number of spells of a given level)? Couldn't a player theoretically just advance his Wizard to level 5, learn one 3rd level spell, then level 7 and learn all of the 4th level spells, then level 9-10 and learn all of the fifth level spells without ever learning any spells beyond the four learned at level one in between? As a Judge, I have my players quest for spells or undergo trials to learn them--they never learn spells just by levelling up--so I'm not saying it's easy to learn a spell. But it just seems like with enough work and luck there's a potential issue of top-balancing the power structure of a Wizard's spellbook without a corrective like "more low-level spells available than high level."
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by GnomeBoy »

dustle wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:45 am Couldn't a player theoretically just advance his Wizard to level 5, learn one 3rd level spell...
This reads like the player is just deciding to make their Wizard 5th Level. That of course does not happen.

But it does mean I can't quite understand the question. There are a number of Known Spells, and also Maximum Spell Level. As the Wizard levels up, they have access to higher levels of spells, but that doesn't mean they automatically gain higher levels of spells.

Cleric spells have a set distribution, but Wizard spells do not. Two 3rd Level Wizards might differ in this way:

A) 6 1st level spells

B) 4 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells

This differentiation can't happen with Clerics, but it can with Wizards.
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by Raven_Crowking »

dustle wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:45 am I wasn't in on the beta-testing, but what is the reasoning behind Wizards having a list of "Known Spells" without regard to level (vs. the Cleric's "Spells Known by Level" or the early D&D systems where a Magic-User would gain a set number of spells of a given level)? Couldn't a player theoretically just advance his Wizard to level 5, learn one 3rd level spell, then level 7 and learn all of the 4th level spells, then level 9-10 and learn all of the fifth level spells without ever learning any spells beyond the four learned at level one in between? As a Judge, I have my players quest for spells or undergo trials to learn them--they never learn spells just by levelling up--so I'm not saying it's easy to learn a spell. But it just seems like with enough work and luck there's a potential issue of top-balancing the power structure of a Wizard's spellbook without a corrective like "more low-level spells available than high level."
Per the rules, yes, a wizard could do exactly this.

The corrective is trying to get to level 5 without any spells.

More importantly, in a game like DCC, work and luck are supposed to pay off.
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by dustle »

dustle wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:45 am Couldn't a player theoretically just advance his Wizard to level 5, learn one 3rd level spell...
GnomeBoy wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:14 pmThis reads like the player is just deciding to make their Wizard 5th Level. That of course does not happen.
Right, sorry if I was unclear. Not what I meant. In my PbP game that I've been running for 18 months or so, the highest level character is level 4, so I know this is a largely theoretical question.
GnomeBoy wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:14 pmBut it does mean I can't quite understand the question. There are a number of Known Spells, and also Maximum Spell Level. As the Wizard levels up, they have access to higher levels of spells, but that doesn't mean they automatically gain higher levels of spells.

Cleric spells have a set distribution, but Wizard spells do not. Two 3rd Level Wizards might differ in this way:

A) 6 1st level spells

B) 4 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells

This differentiation can't happen with Clerics, but it can with Wizards.
I get all of this, but in a purely theoretical/game-design sense I was wondering what the logic was for setting up this spell system for Wizards when older systems (and the Cleric spell mechanic in DCC) do it differently.
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by dustle »

Raven_Crowking wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:02 pm
dustle wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:45 am I wasn't in on the beta-testing, but what is the reasoning behind Wizards having a list of "Known Spells" without regard to level (vs. the Cleric's "Spells Known by Level" or the early D&D systems where a Magic-User would gain a set number of spells of a given level)? Couldn't a player theoretically just advance his Wizard to level 5, learn one 3rd level spell, then level 7 and learn all of the 4th level spells, then level 9-10 and learn all of the fifth level spells without ever learning any spells beyond the four learned at level one in between? As a Judge, I have my players quest for spells or undergo trials to learn them--they never learn spells just by levelling up--so I'm not saying it's easy to learn a spell. But it just seems like with enough work and luck there's a potential issue of top-balancing the power structure of a Wizard's spellbook without a corrective like "more low-level spells available than high level."
Per the rules, yes, a wizard could do exactly this.

The corrective is trying to get to level 5 without any spells.

More importantly, in a game like DCC, work and luck are supposed to pay off.
This pretty much answers my question. In my campaign, though, I have a player with a fourth-level Wizard who has Magic Missile with a really good mercurial effect and Sleep and high physical stats for the occasional spellburn, so he's content with these first-level spells (which almost always succeed, given his CL) and is "banking" his spell slots for higher level spells without learning any level two spells, even when presented to him. I think it's an interesting feature of DCC, but I was just curious about the thought-process that went into it, as it's very different from what has come before (in my experience; I've never played much D&D past 2nd Edition, and I know DCC is built to some degree on 3.X, so there may be some precedent there that I don't know about).
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by GnomeBoy »

Raven_Crowking wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:02 pm ...in a game like DCC, work and luck are supposed to pay off.
There it is, in a nutshell.

It also draws a clear distinction between Clerics and Wizards:

• Clerics serve at the behest of their Gods.

• Wizards plot and scheme and vie for power for themselves.


If it seems like your Wizard is getting by too easily, maybe treat the party as if it were one level higher when designing/choosing adventures...?
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by dustle »

GnomeBoy wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:36 am
Raven_Crowking wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:02 pm ...in a game like DCC, work and luck are supposed to pay off.
There it is, in a nutshell.

It also draws a clear distinction between Clerics and Wizards:

• Clerics serve at the behest of their Gods.

• Wizards plot and scheme and vie for power for themselves.


If it seems like your Wizard is getting by too easily, maybe treat the party as if it were one level higher when designing/choosing adventures...?
:lol: To be fair to the player, his character is at 4 Stamina at this point and can't walk far without resting and has everyone else carrying his stuff... But magic-wise he does get stuff done, which is why the rest of the party puts up with him.
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by Bobjester »

I've looked in all the relevant places in the core rules, but I cannot find any resolution to my specific dilemma regarding a 1st level wizard's first spells:

Is the general consensus for a newly advanced 0 level to 1st level wizard to choose their first four spells, roll for them randomly, or do you make them earn those first four spells by finding a grimoire or some other series of adventures within the campaign?

Has anyone only allowed spell choices or rolls from one of the quickstart's abbreviated "basic set" lists?
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by GnomeBoy »

Generally, they should have their spells for 1st Level play. I think many folks do this randomly or semi-randomly (roll 2 or 3 randomly, and pick the remainder is a popular option; rolling all randomly, but allowing one or two to be traded out if the 4 results seem unimpressive is another).

You can put a grimoire into a Funnel if there isn't already a source of magic within it, and either have that be the source of the 4 random spells, or maybe it's a specific spell to temp the character with...

But however you do it, unless the player was really on board with the idea, playing with no spells at 1st Level and needing to find them could make a player feel like a fifth wheel to the party, until they found those spells.
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by Bobjester »

GnomeBoy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:22 am Generally, they should have their spells for 1st Level play. I think many folks do this randomly or semi-randomly (roll 2 or 3 randomly, and pick the remainder is a popular option; rolling all randomly, but allowing one or two to be traded out if the 4 results seem unimpressive is another).

You can put a grimoire into a Funnel if there isn't already a source of magic within it, and either have that be the source of the 4 random spells, or maybe it's a specific spell to temp the character with...

But however you do it, unless the player was really on board with the idea, playing with no spells at 1st Level and needing to find them could make a player feel like a fifth wheel to the party, until they found those spells.
I agree. :)
One player found a grimoire in a funnel, before the player in question joined, so he missed that funnel exploration/discovery opportunity.

I want to spend some zero session time with him to establish how he gets his initial 4 spells.

Unfortunately, the first player (who found the grimoire) cannot play regularly, and while I don't want to take the grimoire away from his character (he may have to "borrow" it), I want the newer player to get a feeling for DCC wizardry, specifically as he comes from a game system that allows players a vast array of agency and choices that would be very OP for DCC.

(He wants skills & feats & the best book choices of spells & equipment, etc. in a way that goes against the grain of 0 level funnel to 1st level play. He's very adamant about what the rules say he gets vs the spirit of the game and the philosophy that the DM/Judge is in charge of the game, what says goes, but can also be reasonable if players don't "ask for an inch but take a mile".)

Which is why I ask if a 0 level to 1st level wizard could require a spellbook or grimoire to get their first spells, rather than rely on player choice.

Given his choice, he will always pick the best spells and consequently attempt to lazily coast through encounters. I bump them up to challenge him, and he will claim I am trying to kill his character.
It usually ends up with him believing that the game is always about Players vs. DM, when I honestly believe this is a "Don't take your lightsabre with you into that tree!" situation. :?
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by BanjoJohn »

I think wizards have it too easy in DCC these days. I'm leaning towards no automatic spells when leveling up to 1st level. But they may be visited by a demon or something that may tempt them with a grimoir with one spell in it, or maybe a handful of single-use scrolls, in exchange for whatever mcguffin you think the demon would want that the wizard could give them.
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by Bobjester »

I've debated using the grimoire from the 0 level funnel - fleshed out by using the grimoire generation at Purple Sorcerer, or creating a brand new one.

However, a grimoire for every wizard character seems a bit overboard considering the DCC landscape. I am of the opinion that there should be only one powerfully chaotic grimoire (The Key of Sezrekan!) in this nondescript village of Stygholler and any new 1st level wizards should be fighting and scheming to get it.

I have an outline in my head ready to put down. Probably worth a new thread, yeah? But this thread seems very appropriate so I'll keep it here for now. ;)
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by Bobjester »

Background
Vathek the Merchant found the Key of Sezrekan in a 0 level funnel. The Key contained rules to allow a 0 level to possibly advance to 1st level wizard, if the player wishes. It was very obscure about the contents, being left up to the Judge to decide. However, the Key would eventually turn the possessing wizard (assumed) character to the chaotic alignment.

Vathek is Lawful. When the player would advance to 1st, I was going to enforce an alignment change to Neutral. Upon advancing to 2nd, he would turn completely chaotic.

This player is not going to play for the foreseeable future, so there will be a gap when the other players will play and advance events in the campaign.

While Vathek's player (Sam) was gone during the last session that introduced a new player, (Jim) and his four 0 level PCs. For reasons of continuity not related to the 0 level funnel, I decided that the village of Stygholler has a merchant shop owned by Vathek with a "rare books" sections, and a book on local history.

Currently...
Enter Samuel the Orphan (Jim). Soon to advance to 1st level wizard, the player has his sights set on specific spells already.

I rule that in order to gain these spells, Samuel needs to have a source. He cannot just have these spells "pop" into his head out of thin air. There must be a sense of continuity and agency.

In campaign time, weeks pass (much like it has in real life). Samuel believes he has the ability to become a wizard. He has dreamt of magical powers and spells. The dreams are possibly the result of something calling to him...

Prepping for the next session:
It is discovered that Vathek, and his erstwhile companions (also Player Sam's PCs) have mysteriously disappeared. Since they are a part of the Company of the Brass Well, the other PCs should be interested in their fate. They investigate Vathek's shop, only to discover a partially burned study with the Key sitting in the middle of a seven pointed star in the middle the floor, melted blobs of candle wax, and 3 charred (presumably human) bodies. The Key of Sezrekan is now free for the taking again.

This leaves a mystery as to the identity of the charred remains, and what did Vathek actually do to incur this sorcerous result? Clues will point to the trio of corpses to NOT be Vathek or his companions.
Beneath the Well of Brass wrote: The Key of Sezrekan is an infamous grimoire bound in demon-flash and inscribed on plated of hammered gold.
The sheaves of chaos are rendered in Hyperborian and confer damning, caustic knowledge of the universe to any daring to study its pages.
With a DC15 Intelligence check, a character is able to apprehend the first plate:
a primer on mastering the uncaring powers of Chaos. Comprehension of this single plate is sufficient to allow a 0-level human (with sufficient XP) to advance as a wizard, acquiring their first spells.
Later plates build upon prior concepts, with subsequent sheaves requiring a cumulative +5 DC per page.
Mystics, initiates, black magicians, and their ilk who devote time to study the plates can reduce the DC of any one plate by 1 point for each week of study.
The nature of the subsequent panels is left to the judge's discretion. Perhaps the grimoire is seeded with the true names of diabolic powers, hints and clues for later quests, or even the means of reaching Lost Agharta or fabled Sagar-Matha.

List of Spells in the Key of Sezrekan (my additions courtesy of Purple Sorcerer):
Ekim's Mystical Mask (1st), Force Manipulation (1st), Mending (1st), Patron Bond (1st), Sleep (1st), Detect Invisible (2nd), Shatter (2nd), Slow (3rd), Sword Magic (3rd), Write Magic (3rd), Sezrekan Patron Taint, Invoke Patron (1st), Sequester (1st level Patron spell), Shield Maiden (2nd level Patron spell), Phylactery of the Soul (3rd level Patron spell).
Samuel the Orphan (Jim) would have an initial DC15 chance to advance as a wizard, but since he's already declared this, I'd allow a bonus for class level and Intelligence mods to his check.

At this point, he would have access to five 1st level spells to choose his four 1st spells from. He would not be able to decipher the higher level spells identities or effects without further study.

If he desires other spells not here, I reveal that "Later plates build upon prior concepts, with subsequent sheaves requiring a cumulative +5 DC per page. Mystics, initiates, black magicians, and their ilk who devote time to study the plates can reduce the DC of any one plate by 1 point for each week of study."
Study the book and roll against the DC20 check to learn one new spell of his choice. Of course, I want to limit these choices to the Quickstarts, since I have three of them now, and let the players use them at the table while we learn the game. I have two Core rule books, which I allow a player to look up from time to time.

Once we are more comfortable with the system, I'll allow players to choose spells (wizard and clerical) from the Core rulebook.

Every time Samuel the Orphan (Jim) wants to learn a new 1st level spell from the Key, its a DC20 check, 2nd level spells is a DC25 check, 3rd level = DC30, etc. -1 for every week of study and another -1 for every wizard level.

To delve deeper into the Key and learn of its dark secrets, its a DC25 or higher. I haven't a clue as to what to put in it that would be appropriate.
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by dustle »

Bobjester wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:32 am I've looked in all the relevant places in the core rules, but I cannot find any resolution to my specific dilemma regarding a 1st level wizard's first spells:

Is the general consensus for a newly advanced 0 level to 1st level wizard to choose their first four spells, roll for them randomly, or do you make them earn those first four spells by finding a grimoire or some other series of adventures within the campaign?

Has anyone only allowed spell choices or rolls from one of the quickstart's abbreviated "basic set" lists?
Lately I've been going with, "You've 'learned' your spells (either organically in the funnel or rolled randomly) by level one, but you don't 'know' them well enough to cast them until you spend some time in study of them and make a successful check." In my case, I do 1d20 under INT, but something like DC 10 with INT bonus on the roll could work, too.
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Re: Wizard Spells

Post by Bobjester »

I won't require my wizard player to roll an additional die in order to cast a spell, even for the first time casting it ever, but I get the point of the learning curve.

I've decided to let the player choose his first four spells from a grimoire introduced in our funnel. I was going to have him choose from a quick start book, but he jumped the gun & went straight for the spells in the full rules book.

Not a problem for experienced DCC players, but we are not experienced DCC players, and this player in particular views any controls put on the game by a game master as a yoke around his neck.
He'll fight my rulings, just because.
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