Help Blending B/X into DCC

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dustle
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Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by dustle »

Background: when I was really young, I played a little 1st and 2nd Ed. AD&D, but the Rules Cyclopedia came out when I was 14, and that's pretty much what I've used for gaming ever since. A year or two ago, I discovered DCC and have been Judging an ongoing PbP campaign on Discord with seven of my college buddies as the players ever since. I love DCC. It rekindled my love of roleplaying. But in some ways it's felt overpowered to me since the funnel. Permanent deaths are rare with two clerics in the group, the roll over mechanic, and an Elf who can Invoke Patron (King of Elfland) to travel back in time using the halfling of the group as a Luck battery (five of the seven died last week, and the Elf/Halfling combo saved them that way). Anyway, I recently started looking at other OSR systems, and I really like the clean presentation of OSE and also find I prefer some of the scaling rules (Thief in particular) of B/X over the Rules Cyclopedia. So my idea is to use DCC as a base (as that's what my friends are used to and the flavor can't be beat) and try to give it a little more B/X for our next campaign (I think we're nearing a natural conclusion to our first campaign after all this time).

Anyway, ideas so far:

CHARACTERS

Clerics: Mostly as DCC Cleric. Turn Undead (not Turn Unholy) at Level 1, 4* spell slots and Lay on Hands at level 2. May cast spell at minimum effective roll and lose the spell until long rest OR may increase disapproval range by 1 (asking too much of one’s god) and roll on the table. Any spells that the Cleric is of sufficient level to cast may be memorized. Spell slots may not be filled with multiple copies of the same spell. HD 1d6.

*I'm kind of thinking four spell slots at Level 2 for the Cleric might be too much overlap with the Magic-User, but I kind of want to push back against the idea of Cleric as just a healer and emphasize more of the badass slayer of the undead.

Thieves: Mostly as DCC Thief. Must train (e.g. with Guild or Master) to increase Luck Die. HD 1d6.

Fighters: Mostly as DCC Warrior. Must train (e.g. with Guild or Master) to increase Deed Die. HD 1d8.

Magic-Users: Mostly as DCC Wizard. 4 spell slots at level 1. May cast spell at minimum effective roll and lose the spell until long rest (no mercurial effects) OR may spellburn at least 1 point (added to check) and roll on the table (with mercurial effects). Spells must be memorized from the magic-user’s spell book. Spell slots may not be filled with multiple copies of the same spell. New spells must be researched or found in play to be added to the spell book. The number of spells in the spell book may exceed the maximum number of spells that can be memorized. HD 1d4.

Dwarves: Mostly as DCC Dwarf. Must train (e.g. with Guild or Master) to increase Deed Die. HD 1d8. Max Level 12.

Elves: Mostly as DCC Elf (3 spell slots at level 1 plus Patron Bond and Invoke Patron). May cast spell at minimum effective roll and lose the spell until long rest (no mercurial effects) OR may spellburn at least 1 point (added to check) and roll on the table (with mercurial effects). Spells must be memorized from the elf’s spell book. Spell slots may not be filled with multiple copies of the same spell. New spells must be researched or found in play to be added to the spell book. The number of spells in the spell book may exceed the maximum number of spells that can be memorized. HD 1d6. Max Level 10.

Halflings: Mostly as DCC Halfling. Luck points are worth 1 when given to allies, 2 when used for self. AC +2. Missile +1. HD 1d6. Max Level 8.

Level Advancement: As DCC

XP: Rewarded at Judge’s discretion for treasure (1xp/50gp), creative role playing, and/or surviving encounters.


COMBAT

Initiative: As OSE. 1d6/group/round

Fumbles and Crits: As DCC

Saves: As DCC


MISC.

Currency: As OSE (1,000cp = 100sp = 20ep = 10gp = 2pp)

Checks: Roll Under Stats unless Natural Success (e.g. I decide anyone with 12 Strength or more can force a door, otherwise roll under character's Strength). This one is neither DCC or OSE, but I like it.


Any thoughts or feedback would be welcome. I'm looking for something that keeps the DCC flavor but makes it riskier even at higher levels of big (seven PCs) parties. Thanks in advance.
dustle
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by dustle »

I've been tweaking this. Made some mistakes in my first version, didn't account for level disparity between B/X and DCC, for instance. I revised my modifications for pretty much all of the character classes. Anyway, I think I'm getting close to something workable and have designed a dungeon to try it out with some first level characters that I plan to run as a one-off with some coworkers. I figure I'll have a better idea of how it works once I see it in play. But any preemptive criticisms, observations, potential problems, etc. are welcome.


CHARACTERS

If not running a funnel, all level one characters start with 1d4 HP + HD

Cleric: Mostly as DCC Cleric. Turn Undead (not Turn Unholy) at Level 1, 3 spell slots and Lay on Hands at level 2. May cast spell at minimum effective roll and lose the spell until long rest OR may increase disapproval range by 1 (asking too much of one’s god) and roll on the table (disapproval range starts at 0 each day). Lay on Hands may be rolled without preemptive increase of disapproval range, as DCC. Any spells that the Cleric is of sufficient level to cast may be memorized. Spell reversal possible without action dice penalty but should only be reversed according to alignment. Spell slots may not be filled with multiple copies of the same spell. Attack Bonus per level as DCC Halfling. HD 1d7.

Magic-User: Mostly as DCC Wizard. 4 spell slots--one of which must be Read Magic--at level 1. May cast spell at minimum effective roll and lose the spell until long rest (no mercurial effects) OR may spellburn at least 1 point (first point not added to check) and roll on the table (with mercurial effects). Patron Bond and Invoke Patron restrictions as with Elf (see below). Spells must be memorized from the magic-user’s spell book. Spell slots may not be filled with multiple copies of the same spell. Spell reversal possible at action die one lower on the dice chain. New spells must be researched or found in play to be added to the spell book (success in adding a spell to the book is determined by intelligence check). The number of spells in the spell book may exceed the maximum number of spells that can be memorized. Spells higher than maximum level that can be cast cannot be added to the spell book. HD 1d4.

Fighter: Mostly as DCC Warrior. Must train (e.g. with Guild or Master) to increase Deed Die at monetary cost and contingent on successful Strength check (failed check may be repeated with additional training). HD 1d10.

Thief: As DCC Thief. HD 1d7.

Dwarf: Mostly as DCC Dwarf. Must train (e.g. with Clan or Master) to increase Deed Die at monetary cost and contingent on successful Strength check (failed check may be repeated with additional training). HD 1d10. Max Level 8.

Elf: Mostly as DCC Elf. 3 spell slots--one of which must be Read Magic--at level 1 plus Patron Bond and Invoke Patron. The slots for Patron Bond and Invoke Patron may not be filled by other spells and these spells must be rolled as DCC. No auto-check for secret doors. May cast spell (apart from Patron Bond and Invoke Patron) at minimum effective roll and lose the spell until long rest (no mercurial effects) OR may spellburn at least 1 point (first point not added to check) and roll on the table (with mercurial effects). Spells must be memorized from the elf’s spell book. Spell slots may not be filled with multiple copies of the same spell. Spell reversal possible at action die one lower on the dice chain. New spells must be researched or found in play to be added to the spell book (success in adding a spell to the book is determined by intelligence check). The number of spells in the spell book may exceed the maximum number of spells that can be memorized. Spells higher than maximum level that can be cast cannot be added to the spell book. HD 1d7. Max Level 7.

Halfling: Mostly as DCC Halfling. Luck points are worth 1 when given to allies, 2 when used for self. AC +2 against monsters larger than human-sized. Missile attacks +1. HD 1d7. Max Level 6.

Level Advancement: As DCC

XP: Rewarded at Judge’s discretion, e.g. for treasure (1xp/50gp), creative role playing, and/or surviving encounters.


COMBAT

Initiative: As OSE (1d6/group/round)

Fumbles and Crits: As DCC

Saves: As DCC


MISC.

Currency: As OSE (1,000cp = 100sp = 20ep = 10gp = 2pp)

Skill checks: Roll Under Stats unless Natural Success (e.g. I decide anyone with 12 Strength or more can force a door, otherwise roll under character's Strength). Dice chain for higher difficulties.
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by finarvyn »

Some nice ideas here. My experience has been that 2 levels of B/X (or AD&D or most other OSR products) equates roughly to 1 level of DCC RPG, so that might help guide you a little in estimating your conversions. Overall I like what I see, however.
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dustle
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by dustle »

Thanks for the response. Maybe I'll update after I playtest it a little.
dustle
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by dustle »

finarvyn wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:26 am Some nice ideas here. My experience has been that 2 levels of B/X (or AD&D or most other OSR products) equates roughly to 1 level of DCC RPG, so that might help guide you a little in estimating your conversions. Overall I like what I see, however.
Thanks again for the encouragement. What started out as House Rules for DCC has led me down a real rabbit hole since I first posted: actually reading through the Little Brown Books, the supplements, Holmes, Moldvay & Cook, and more (modern retroclones, for instance, including your White Box). I grew up on BECMI, but I even went back and read that again with new eyes. Anyway, I'm now deep in the middle of creating my own system pretty firmly rooted in those early ones, though it still has a bit of DCC in its blood (no Luck attribute, for instance, but Thieves can "press their luck"--at level 1, that's 3d6 with a penalty below 9 and a bonus above 12--and I kept the above-mentioned idea of letting magic-users choose between casting and forgetting OR rolling at their own risk). Anyway, I won't bore you with any more details as it's largely irrelevant to Goodman Games at this point, but I just wanted to thank you again just for saying "some nice ideas here." Even if my players never want to play it again beyond the first playtest (whenever that will be), I'm having a blast creating it, running dice simulations, reading old modules, etc.
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by BanjoJohn »

Still a pretty cool idea. I do like adding gold/xp into DCC, i just like.. "earning" levels, and only getting 1-4 XP per encounter makes it a slog. And getting "milestone" style level ups just feels wrong to me. So getting loot to earn more xp seems like a good addition.
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by Raven_Crowking »

BanjoJohn wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:30 am Still a pretty cool idea. I do like adding gold/xp into DCC, i just like.. "earning" levels, and only getting 1-4 XP per encounter makes it a slog. And getting "milestone" style level ups just feels wrong to me. So getting loot to earn more xp seems like a good addition.
Here is a start on the math:

https://ravencrowking.blogspot.com/2018 ... -gold.html
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
dustle
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by dustle »

Raven_Crowking wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:24 am
BanjoJohn wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:30 am Still a pretty cool idea. I do like adding gold/xp into DCC, i just like.. "earning" levels, and only getting 1-4 XP per encounter makes it a slog. And getting "milestone" style level ups just feels wrong to me. So getting loot to earn more xp seems like a good addition.
Here is a start on the math:

https://ravencrowking.blogspot.com/2018 ... -gold.html
Nice! That's a great way of thinking about it. I'll have to give it a try with the system I'm working on (which has different level thresholds). Thanks.
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by Bobjester »

Ever since I read Dave Arneson's Adventures In Fantasy & First Fantasy Campaign, I've wanted to try his GP for XP system. Instead of receiving XP for GPV, he rules that players must spend their gold in some way relevant to their characters to receive XP for it.

You could spend GP on class training, stronghold construction or upkeep, magical research, donating to your order, etc., stock ill-gotten (stolen) treasures in a trophy room, even go so far as starting a NPC family & spending GP on them to keep the spouse happy, children fed, etc. while you're out roaming with your band.

It really struck me that this was a great way to expand on role playing opportunities, as well as putting meaning behind the WHY it is that GP=XP as a mechanic.

I know that GP=XP disappeared in AD&D 2e, because many had moved on from the premise that wealth has anything to do with character level. I maintain that character levels were not only an expression of physical prowess in advancing ability scores, hit points, hit dice, attacks, spells, etc.,

but were also meant to denote a character's ability to influence and expand the campaign.

The most obvious mechanical advantage to having wealth was the stronghold construction rules. Sure, you could command the NPCs as followers gained at higher levels, and this part was kept in later editions, but taking out that GP=XP bridge made no sense.

NPCs follow the PC because they had influence and money & would be capable of paying them a wage. This not relevant to the character's level of wealth was an unnecessary change.

As scarce as money is in DCC's implied setting, awarding 1xp for 10 platinum pieces (using the standard XP level advancement table) might be a better ratio with DCC's implied setting.
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by dustle »

Again, not DCC or Goodman specific, but curious from a game design perspective if anyone has thoughts on this:

The system I've developed is almost all d6-based. Sometimes 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, etc. but really based on the one type of die. The only exceptions in the system as it exists are combat (d20) and magic (without getting into it too deeply, optional d20). My best friend read the system and called me a "coward" for not embracing d6 completely (I appreciate his honest feedback; he's my best friend). Anyway, the reason I have the d20 vs. 3d6 built into the system is that I want some luck factor in there. The moment you introduce a second die (like 2d6), you start to get a curve that middles out. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to get that swinginess using d6 but not just boiling it down to 1d6 (which seems limited in that bonuses like +1 suddenly have a lot more weight)? I was thinking of something like 1d6(x3) so that bonuses and penalties are less extreme, but I'm wondering if anybody else has other thoughts that might better emulate d20 only using d6. Thanks in advance. As I mentioned in my first post, DCC got my back into gaming, so this is my go-to forum, but sorry if it's not what other people come here for.
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by GnomeBoy »

To take the curve out of the d6 and have it scale larger for, um, whatever reason in your game that you'd roll 3d6, etc., use a control die. I'll briefly explain control dice, in case it's unfamiliar...

You know how percentiles work. Now look at it this way: One percentile die is telling you which "bracket" of the 1-100 scale you're in (you're in the 21-30 range [3rd bracket] or the 81-90 range [9th bracket], etc.) The other percentile die is telling you where in the bracket you are (if you're in the 3rd bracket and you have a 4 on the second die, then you've rolled a 24). There's a special case for '00', but the idea of brackets and range within the bracket is the main idea here...

That explanation sounds more complicated than making the actual percentile roll is in practice. But what's important is that once you have that concept, you can switch the dice out, in this case to d6's...

So instead of a 2d6 roll, roll 1d6 to determine low (1-3) or high (4-6), and then another to give you where you are in high or low, and you'll find you have a range of 1-12 with no curve.

Roll 1d6 with low (1-2). medium (3-4), and high (5-6) results, and another d6 to determine where within the bracket you are, and you have 1-18 with no curve.

Now, 1-24 is trickier, but there are ways to get there. 1-30 is also trickier. 1-36 is easy.

Depending on how many d6's your game design involves, this "d6 'percentiles' idea" may be a good solution.
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dustle
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Re: Help Blending B/X into DCC

Post by dustle »

GnomeBoy wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:10 am To take the curve out of the d6 and have it scale larger for, um, whatever reason in your game that you'd roll 3d6, etc., use a control die. I'll briefly explain control dice, in case it's unfamiliar...

You know how percentiles work. Now look at it this way: One percentile die is telling you which "bracket" of the 1-100 scale you're in (you're in the 21-30 range [3rd bracket] or the 81-90 range [9th bracket], etc.) The other percentile die is telling you where in the bracket you are (if you're in the 3rd bracket and you have a 4 on the second die, then you've rolled a 24). There's a special case for '00', but the idea of brackets and range within the bracket is the main idea here...

That explanation sounds more complicated than making the actual percentile roll is in practice. But what's important is that once you have that concept, you can switch the dice out, in this case to d6's...

So instead of a 2d6 roll, roll 1d6 to determine low (1-3) or high (4-6), and then another to give you where you are in high or low, and you'll find you have a range of 1-12 with no curve.

Roll 1d6 with low (1-2). medium (3-4), and high (5-6) results, and another d6 to determine where within the bracket you are, and you have 1-18 with no curve.

Now, 1-24 is trickier, but there are ways to get there. 1-30 is also trickier. 1-36 is easy.

Depending on how many d6's your game design involves, this "d6 'percentiles' idea" may be a good solution.
Wow, thanks so much. This helps a lot.
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