Elves and crits

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JRR
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Elves and crits

Post by JRR »

I notice the lowly elf rolls on crit table 2. That's worse than anyone besides magic users. I'm thinking of bumping that up to table 3. My thinking is that a fighter/mu multiclass - and let's face it that's what the elf is - should at least be as good in combat as a cleric or halfling. Anyone think that will make elves more attractive to play? If it matters, my other house rules are 3d6, arrange to taste, and pick a race before rolling occupation. I.E, elves would only roll 1d8. I also intend to encourage diversity, I'd like to have 5 different classes (I have 5 players) by the time they hit level 1. Game hasn't started yet, just trying to get my ducks in a row.
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cjoepar
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by cjoepar »

I wouldn't make too many changes until you've played the rules as written a few times. Elves are highly versatile, and every bit as good at magic as a wizard if they have decent Intelligence.

Getting a nice balance of classes would be nice, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way. No worry - if you're playing it right few characters will see 2nd or 3rd level, so the party mix will be changing all the time.
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Ravenheart87
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by Ravenheart87 »

Something akin to this has been asked during beta. Crit Table II is not worse at all compared to Crit Table III! Thieves and elves get a different crit table because their fighting style is different: instead of brute force they use precise attacks to wound and maim their foes. They do have smaller crit die than thieves, but they are a less focused and more versatile class. No need to make the elf more attractive in my opinion. They are not equal part warriors, equal part wizards here, but superb wizards with some martial capability.
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by JRR »

Ravenheart87 wrote:They are not equal part warriors, equal part wizards here, but superb wizards with some martial capability.
And there's the problem. I WANT a class that is just as capable in melee as it is in magic. I haven't compared the two crit tables very closely, I'll take a closer look, thanks.
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Skyscraper
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by Skyscraper »

JRR wrote:
Ravenheart87 wrote:They are not equal part warriors, equal part wizards here, but superb wizards with some martial capability.
And there's the problem. I WANT a class that is just as capable in melee as it is in magic. I haven't compared the two crit tables very closely, I'll take a closer look, thanks.
I assume Raven Crowking will not mind if I link to his multiclassing blog post. There, you'll find a good way to let someone become a warrior-wizard, equal parts in both if the player so chooses.

It seems to me that the elf is a good part magic user with a small part fighter, if you want to look at it that way. At least, that's my impression. Increasing his martial capability would certainly get you to where you want, but would that not allow the elf to be a notch over the rest of the classes? I would trust the designers that they have balanced the classes well, and resist buffing one class, until I had played the game as written. If you buff the elf and realize after the fact that he is is as apt as the wizard with his spells and close to as apt as the fighter with his sword, I'm unsure that your table of players will be happy with the result. But it's your game of course.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by JRR »

If that makes him too powerful, what does that say of the cleric? I'm not suggesting give him a d12 hd, the warrrior deed die, or crit table 5. I just want to make him as capable in melee as a cleric, which he still won't be due to a smaller hd and the inability to use metal weapons or armor.
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Skyscraper
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Re: Elves and crits

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I have not done an in-depth comparison of power between classes. I don't think this game is about that, either. All I'm saying is that the designers propose a certain approach to elves and I would be inclined to follow that instead of changing it. If you think that changing their crit die and crit table is not significant, then why do it? If you think it's signficant, then won't it change class balance? You seem to suggest that it's not a big change and I would tend to agree with you on that, myself.

As for the elf vs cleric: remember that they do not have access to the same spell list, if that is helpful in your evaluation. And the cleric cannot spell burn. These two among other things help differentiate the elf from the cleric.

Anyway, like I said this is your game, if you feel like slightly increasing the elf's crit die and crit table, why not.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.
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Raven_Crowking
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by Raven_Crowking »

Also, disapproval is a bear.....especially as the range increases, and you are rolling higher numbers. I had one PC declare that his god hated him due to the effects of disapproval. And, given that he is a Chaotic cleric of the Evil God of Amphibians, he might be right.
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Ravenheart87
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by Ravenheart87 »

Well if you want to have an elf warrior-wizard, why not have it? Changing only the crit table won't help much. Instead, change his hit dice, attack bonus, lower the number of spells he gets and give him only a half caster level for every level.

Or let the elf quest for it. Eg. the elf blade dancers are legendary, but they don't teach their techniquest to anyone. If you complete a challenging quest for a master, he's going to teach you the art of ancient elven swordsmanship. This increases your attack bonus and initiative when wielding swords.
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JRR
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by JRR »

Skyscraper wrote:If you think that changing their crit die and crit table is not significant, then why do it? If you think it's signficant, then won't it change class balance? You seem to suggest that it's not a big change and I would tend to agree with you on that, myself.
IT will change class balance, but only slightly, and in this case, I think it's needed. Not for any power discrepancy, but to better model archetypes. An elf should be a capable warrior. I still plan to compare the crit tables side by side before I decide. At any rate, it will only come up 1 in 20 attack rolls.

Thanks for the insight.
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by GnomeBoy »

One simple rebalancing of the Elf's Warrior/Wizardly proportions: Let them twice in their advancement beyond 1st Level give up getting the capacity for a new spell in favor of an extra +1 attack bonus. Doing that twice (at two different level ups) brings them to more or less where the Cleric is for the To Hit bonus.

You could even make it so that once they do that trade off the first time, then they get to use Crit Chart III instead of II -- they've decided to become more martial...
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JRR
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Re: Elves and crits

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Ravenheart87 wrote:Something akin to this has been asked during beta. Crit Table II is not worse at all compared to Crit Table III!
Having looked more closely at the two tables, you are right, in many cases, table 2 is superior (numbers wise anyway) to table 3. I'll be leaving that as is, but I still want a more martial bent to elves. I'm thinking of bumping their attack bonus up to the cleric's table, and bumping their max spell level down a level.
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cjoepar
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by cjoepar »

I'd be interested in knowing how this works out for you. Particularly, how you are able to get a balance of classes in the party if you are increasing the effectiveness of elves and giving the players the option to choose to be an elf when they are rolling up their characters. Most people I have played with over the years will tend to want to play the class that's more effective than the others if they have the option.
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by JRR »

I'll update the results here. May be a few weeks before my game starts. We're currently playing a Savage Worlds post apocalyptic game. My goal is not to simply make elves more powerful, but to make them more martial. Honestly, there's barely any difference between an elf and a wizard when it comes to mundane combat. Sacrificing a spell level for a better to hit table seems fair to me. And the option to choose a background is already there: From page 21: "Note that a character’s occupation need not be determined randomly. If a player has a strong sense of the character’s background, he should feel free to use it. Starting trained weapon and trade goods can be determined thematically
with the judge’s approval."
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Skyscraper
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Re: Elves and crits

Post by Skyscraper »

I'll also be interested to hear how you feel your changes worked out.

Have fun when you game starts!
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.
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