Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

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herecomethejudge
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Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by herecomethejudge »

It looks like there's another Brave Halfling Publishing situation going on at the Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6 Kickstarter. Three issues were promised for July through September 2019 by creator Adam Muszkiewicz, over $7000 was pledged, and absolutely nothing has been produced so far (April 29 2020). Any other backers here, and is GG aware of the situation?
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by Raven_Crowking »

I am a backer.

I hope that these issues are produced.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by herecomethejudge »

I hope they are too. It's looking highly doubtful as Adam has posted a couple of "updates" this winter which consisted of two pieces of art -- basically what you would expect as a teaser going IN to the project, not long after it was due -- and a half-apology. No updated timetables, nothing. And no new updates for two months now. Weird since he was able to get issues 1-3 done, so he had an idea of what was involved in getting a project like this published.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by Jim Skach »

I have trust (ETA: Adam is good people).

He will either do it or he won't. If he doesn't, I assume he has a good reason. If he does, it will be awesome - even it takes another three years.

This is why I tend to limit my KS to people I know, or people trusted by people I know. That way I can look at it like a patron (in the old sense of the word, not a Patron from DCC!). I put the money in - whatever comes out is great. If that's nothing, then usually I've just helped a friend or a company in which I have faith, or both (see: Goodman Games).

My lord...I'm just getting my Marmoreal Tomb stuff. I suspect when all is said and done it will be a beautiful piece of work. God knows if I'll ever see anything out of the two, count 'em two, D&D documentaries into which I dumped money back in the day (at least 5 or more years now).

Artists are flaky. I prefer to just given the ones I know the money and see what they come up with...and then have patience.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by herecomethejudge »

"Artists are flaky" is hella weak, not to mention insulting to artists. I've backed quite a few KS projects and have never had one fall through like this before.

"He will either do it or he won't" is also just an obvious statement of fact, not a defense. The question is, at what point are refunds in order if it turns out that "he won't"? There is a community to be accountable to here. Dude just stole $7K if he doesn't deliver, and so far, we're about 9 months behind schedule with literally zero explanation, not a single issue out of 3 promised, and no updated timetables.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by catseye yellow »

i don't know. stuff happens. when you support a KS you are taking a risk. it is not the same as ordering a book from amazon. in a way you are commisioning a thing from an artist and sometimes inspiration dries up and life catches you unaware.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by Jim Skach »

herecomethejudge wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:30 am "Artists are flaky" is hella weak, not to mention insulting to artists.
It's a compliment.
herecomethejudge wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:30 am I've backed quite a few KS projects and have never had one fall through like this before.
Then you are lucky. As catseye points out - it's a risk, not a purchase. Once I came to that perspective, I changed the way I backed.
herecomethejudge wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:30 am "He will either do it or he won't" is also just an obvious statement of fact, not a defense.
Defense? Who is putting up a defense? Is this an Inquiry of some sort? Do I need a lawyer?
herecomethejudge wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:30 am The question is, at what point are refunds in order if it turns out that "he won't"? There is a community to be accountable to here. Dude just stole $7K if he doesn't deliver, and so far, we're about 9 months behind schedule with literally zero explanation, not a single issue out of 3 promised, and no updated timetables.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by catseye yellow »

i mean i understand people getting upset to an extent. i am geek and love to get stuff BUT creators are people, deadlines are really not conductive to creativity, sometimes you overreach and sometimes stuff happens (like losing your day job or, on a happier note, becoming a parent). i have unlimited patience and understanding for creators.

and on another note: this 7000$ has probably already been spent on the project. they didn't STEAL anything and there was obviously no fraudulent intent on their part.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by catseye yellow »

that said i would probably be tempted to burglarize into marc bruner's house to get DCC dying earth rules so who am i to judge?
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by herecomethejudge »

Jim Skach wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:49 pm
herecomethejudge wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:30 am "Artists are flaky" is hella weak, not to mention insulting to artists.
It's a compliment.
It really isn't though. Plenty of artists set deadlines and meet them and refund their clients if they can't deliver. Those who don't, don't keep getting work.
Jim Skach wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:49 pm
herecomethejudge wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:30 am The question is, at what point are refunds in order if it turns out that "he won't"? There is a community to be accountable to here. Dude just stole $7K if he doesn't deliver, and so far, we're about 9 months behind schedule with literally zero explanation, not a single issue out of 3 promised, and no updated timetables.
Fourth wave, man. Fourth wave.
I have no idea what this means. I'm far from the only person pissed off about this KS or the way Adam Muszkiewicz has been handling it though.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by herecomethejudge »

catseye yellow wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 1:48 am i mean i understand people getting upset to an extent. i am geek and love to get stuff BUT creators are people, deadlines are really not conductive to creativity, sometimes you overreach and sometimes stuff happens (like losing your day job or, on a happier note, becoming a parent). i have unlimited patience and understanding for creators.

and on another note: this 7000$ has probably already been spent on the project. they didn't STEAL anything and there was obviously no fraudulent intent on their part.
Things do happen. I also backed the Umerica two-shot, part of which has been taking a while. But it's all good because there are regular updates and explanations, and it never feels like the creator dropped the ball or just abandoned it, which is definitely the case with Metal Gods. There's a way to handle it and a way not to handle it, and Adam Muszkiewicz has chosen the way not to handle it.

The $7000 probably already has been spent? On what? The project is a tiny, black-and-white zine. Literally not a thing has been produced so far.

Taking money with the promise of giving something in return and then not doing so is indeed stealing. We also have no idea what the intent was, fraudulent or not, so that's not a claim anyone should make.

Finally, "deadlines are not conducive to creativity" is a poor excuse for promising three zines starting in July 2019 and having absolutely nothing ten months later.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by GnomeBoy »

herecomethejudge wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:58 am The $7000 probably already has been spent? On what? The project is a tiny, black-and-white zine. Literally not a thing has been produced so far.
To be fair, we don't know what he may have already paid out to artists and writers whose work has been completed. A finished zine isn't out yet, but that doesn't mean nothing has been done.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by catseye yellow »

herecomethejudge wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:58 am
catseye yellow wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 1:48 am i mean i understand people getting upset to an extent. i am geek and love to get stuff BUT creators are people, deadlines are really not conductive to creativity, sometimes you overreach and sometimes stuff happens (like losing your day job or, on a happier note, becoming a parent). i have unlimited patience and understanding for creators.

and on another note: this 7000$ has probably already been spent on the project. they didn't STEAL anything and there was obviously no fraudulent intent on their part.
Things do happen. I also backed the Umerica two-shot, part of which has been taking a while. But it's all good because there are regular updates and explanations, and it never feels like the creator dropped the ball or just abandoned it, which is definitely the case with Metal Gods. There's a way to handle it and a way not to handle it, and Adam Muszkiewicz has chosen the way not to handle it.

The $7000 probably already has been spent? On what? The project is a tiny, black-and-white zine. Literally not a thing has been produced so far.

Taking money with the promise of giving something in return and then not doing so is indeed stealing. We also have no idea what the intent was, fraudulent or not, so that's not a claim anyone should make.

Finally, "deadlines are not conducive to creativity" is a poor excuse for promising three zines starting in July 2019 and having absolutely nothing ten months later.

it is not poor excuse. it is plain truth. i write for a living and it can be really hard. it helps when you have good editors, caring publishers and helpful colleagues but if you are one man band it can get pretty tough, pretty quick.

so, as i said you have backed small fanzine - thousand things could have gone south.

also, adam has already probably paid artists and writers. i mean i understand disappointment but i think that you are wrong in calling on goodman to police dcc kickstarters. not to mention that it still might get done.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by Vanguard »

Small creative projects like these are extremely susceptible to delays because, as others have noted, there are so many things that can happen to throw timelines off. Real life stuff like employment or relationship changes, as well as game-adjacent stuff like playtesting taking longer, gaming groups collapsing, revisions, etc all would impact this. A 6 month or longer delay is completely realistic. Now factor that that world has gone sideways and will remain so for some time.

Another thing to consider about backing a smaller kickstarter (beyond the risks outlined) is that you're not dealing with a business but a passionate fan/creator. They might be great at coming up with new game content but less adept at project management or communications. It's understandably frustrating, but there likely isn't any mal intent here.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by Raven_Crowking »

Personally, I am very happy with the first three issues of Metal Gods, and I certainly expect to be happy with the next three.

It is not unreasonable to get a bit antsy under the circumstances, but I am not personally concerned. I expect that the Metal Gods will appear once more.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by catseye yellow »

METAL GODS WILL RISE ONCE AGAIN!
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by herecomethejudge »

5 months since the last KS update and still no products.

The following was written in the initial KS campaign notes in February 2019:
"Issue #4: Time of Crisis! [...] This issue is almost completely written and will be ready for art & layout soon."
estimated delivery: April 2019 (14 months ago)

"Issue #5: Murder Gangs of Ur-Hadad [...] This issue is currently in playtesting and is expected to be finished by mid-Summer [2019]"
estimated delivery: July 2019 (11 months ago)

"Issue #6: Mysterious Gods of Ur-Hadad [...] This issue is currently in playtesting and is expected to be finished by mid-Autumn [2019]"
estimated delivery: October 2019 (8 months ago)
Additional comments from the KS launch notes:
"Issue #4 is almost finished being written and will happen anyway, so our biggest challenges are slow-downs at the development or writing stages for Issues #5 & 6. Art could also slow the process down, but that's one of the reasons that we're doing this Kickstarter, to be able to spread the work out over more artists than normal. Basically, we see the completion of the products as inevitable, but there are few places where things could slow down a bit. We've accounted for a certain degree of that with our production schedule, to keep slowdowns from being death sentences."
Has anyone here been involved in the playtesting for 5 or 6?
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by dseppling »

I second your request.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by Gameogre »

When you back a Kickstarter to are paying the maker to attempt to make a product. If you want more than this...do not ever back a kickstarter....wait till it comes out in stores and buy it then!

They used to reward such a money gamble with extra rewards that made that risk more worth it. Now...it's just accepted for the most part and you do it because you want to give that creator money in the hopes that it will pan out.

If you have other ideas based on anything else about Kickstarters then you have a long angry frustrating road ahead. I used to back it a lot and for a long time had a pretty good record of wins but over time the other side started to add up. I have seen it all now. Seen some great ones and seen many that just ended in failure and disappointment for every reason under the sun.

If a creator fails to deliver you are just out the money most times. Mostly not because he is a crook and trying to rip people off but because it creating this stuff isn't ever a sure thing. People get sick,people die, people underestimate prices,are just bad with money are bad at organization, get hit out of the blue with debt they didn't expect, drop the ball and fumble the project and end up without enough money to finish but what they did get is spent.

It does suck, for everyone but it happens a LOT. It's ok to get upset, the same as you do on any gamble.

It isn't more than that though. It isn't theft and your money is probably gone. If you can't afford to lose it. Don't gamble on a kickstarter.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by herecomethejudge »

Gameogre wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:50 pm When you back a Kickstarter to are paying the maker to attempt to make a product.
According to the creator, the project was mostly already done, with issue #4 set to be published regardless of funding goals, and issues 5 and 6 already having been in playtesting, so the only gamble was whether they would just literally take the money and run.

Anyway, update 11/3/2021: no further posts from the project creator.
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Re: Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad #4-6: Abandoned Kickstarter?

Post by qstor »

Well Ernie Gygax took over 50K of peoples money and didn't produce and it's been 7 years! Hope something works out!
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