I am not going to address all of your comments as it would get to be too big of a thread.
The only one that I wanted to clarify was you take that I accused anyone not playing a Fighter/Warrior a power gamer. That was not my intention. I just found that at higher levels, spell casters take much more time to manage during the adventure because there were MANY more options (too many). So to keep everything straight a player would spend more time reviewing their options as opposed to paying attention to what was going on (i.e. not RPing as much or missing things).
That was all I was trying to convey.
The changes were subtle but I think very important to prevent other classes from overwhelming a warrior. Because as you wrote them, the other classes were potentially more powerful than a warriors MDoA because a warrior has to hit AND roll higher than a number on their class die. Your non-warrior character just has it hit above a certain number. This idea becomes a very important as characters level up and your non-warrior acquires a magical weapon. They potentially have more reliable access to MDoA's than warriors.
As to the emphasized portion of the quote: I think there is some confusion based on lack of clarity on my part in my original posting. I'm not arguing to give variable attack die to all classes. I want a streamlined mechanic that allows all players access to the MDoA tables
Agreed. I never thought you were arguing for the variable attack die. The variable attack die are all that keeps a warrior from running over the top of everyone with the MDoA's. Noting says 'it is not your day today' like rolling a 20 + 1 (on you d3) die roll.
Tortog wrote:From the beta-warrior description: "If the action die is a 2 or less, or the overall attack fails, the Deed fails as well."
Based on this I can see your argument about my proposal being more powerful than warriors ability. In my games I haven't been holding to this anyway in an attempt to prompt the players into using the feature. I have found that the players are more interested in survival (which means choosing to do damage) rather than in being mighty. If a warrior declares a Deed and then rolls a 2 on the attack die, they can still do damage if they rolled high enough to hit.
My proposed mechanic states that a non-warrior will need to roll a MINIMUM of 5 higher than their opponent's AC on their attack roll...so the successful attack is part of the successful MDoA just like warriors. The only difference is that non-warriors have the -2 penalty, which guarantees that they won't get the top level MDoA results unless they have lots of magic or they are kicking puppies; and, they only use 1 die for the attack. The better trained 1st lvl warrior (with their 2 attack die formula) is effectively rolling a minimum of 1d23 for each attack that guarantees more hits more often with higher results on the MDoA chart. Seems balanced to me... especially if you consider that in this paradigm the first level warrior would probably be starting their Variable Attack Die (VAD) progression with 1d4 and ending with 1d8. I would leave the tables as written, which would then mean the warriors are more mighty than anyone else
By bumping the warrior up to a d4 starting at first level significantly skews the %'s and combat abilities of the warriors up (at lower levels). Do we need to increase 1st level Warriors and Dwarves up that much?
As for the rest of your statement... lets turn that argument inside out shall we? I'm not that good at computers. If someone else can find the thread and post a link it that would be great; but, there was a discussion a few weeks ago that was postulating what the MDoA tables would look like for levels 6-10. By the time folks got to their descriptions for level 7+ MDoA they had given the Warrior class default magic spells that were more reliable, and have no risk of corruption. So stick that in your game balance argument and watch it fall to pieces...
At the time that a Warrior is that level, his combat prowess should be fairly significant. Remember that a 5th level character is among the elite in the world. An even higher level character becomes nearly magical in their abilities. Until the charts are out and finalized, everything is only speculation. But to be honest, a Warrior will not get their high results very often. As they not only have to match the number = > on their class die, but they also have to hit their tougher opponent. So I think it is more balanced that people are thinking about.
After saying that, I am actually not a fan of the MDoA charts as written. I found that when doing Beta testing from before the charts, Warriors were more inventive and in my mind more effective. Once the charts were added, I found them just picking one ability off of the chart every round. But that is sorta a side point.
Tortog wrote:I like "simple" too, but oversimplification can cause its own issues; the way DCCRPG treats non- humans is a perfect example (that needs its own thread). If, as you say, the oversimplification is a design strength then the designers are limited to either opening the MDoA for all classes (with warriors being superior in this regard); or, get rid of it and we all return to "winging it" like in the pre- 3e days. Creating a separate mechanic for non-warriors is not an option as it violates the simplicity meme by creating a sub-system in the attack rules.
I can agree with you there that over simplification can be bad. But I very much disagree with you that a non-Warrior class should have the ability to access MDoA. A warrior will not get a priest spell, nor shall a wizard get an MDoA.
To show that I am not 100% stubborn, I could concede that the first category of an MDoA could be accessible by any class. (i.e. MDoA result of 3). But nothing higher... well MAYBE a Cleric could get to 4. Slim down the effects of a 3 result to bring it in line with a successful result and go with it.
But I honestly do not need to see what the hangup on getting access to the MDoA. These are special maneuvers for Warriors and Dwarves. Other classes can just easily use Bull Rush, Disarm, Trip, etc... rules from the d20 OGL. (either as written or slightly modified because there is no grid to put characters on in DCC RPG).
Please note that a prior comment by someone that combat is 25 pages WAS not referencing special attack forms at all. The majority of the special attack forms can be resolved in 1-2 paragraphs each. Please note that I excluded Grapple (isn't that a word banned by gamer's in at least 40 states?)... but since that is not an MDoA, it does not matter. In reality, the MDoA section will probably take more space in the book than the 'standard' maneuver section.
Hamakto's basic example: (Please note this is just an example and not intended for final consumption)
Bull Rush: You charge an opponent attempting to move him out of the way. You take -2 to your armor class. The opponent gets a free whack as you close and if they are successful, then your bull rush is stopped and you take damage. Otherwise make an attack roll. If you are successful, you move your opponent back 5' + 5' for every 5 points you make the attack roll by. If you fail, your opponent has the option to have you stop in the blocked square or 'let' you slide by moving 5' beyond the target + 5' per 5 you missed the attack roll by.
So to take one of the earlier examples, a Wizard could attempt to push someone off the bridge. But if he rolled bad enough, then he could be the one going off of the bridge.
A warrior would have the option of choosing:
1. a 'standard' maneuver (which would incur a free whack from the opponent)
2. Using a MDoA chart (assuming there is a bull rush one in the future).
3. Describing a cool bull rush move to the DM, and the DM letting the class die decide if it is successful with no 'free whack'. Remember MDoA's are not only charts but what the imagination works up for a Warrior.
To hopefully forestall your next response... ANY character can describe the action. But the resolution system is described in the basic combat maneuver. A DM can easily allow a bull rush with a spiked shield to do some damage in addition to the bull rush. But only a Warrior can access the special table.
Hopefully that makes my position clearer.