Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

FORUM LOCKED AS OF 4/3/12. Forum for open playtest feedback related to combat rules, crits, fumbles, Mighty Deeds of Arms, etc.

Moderators: DJ LaBoss, michaelcurtis, finarvyn, Harley Stroh

Locked
User avatar
reverenddak
Moderator
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:04 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by reverenddak » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:49 pm

I haven't played it yet, so I'll let my final thoughts be after a few rounds of combat.

But these are my initial thoughts:

Likes: I like that they're "typed". Table I, Table II, etc. So when it comes to homebrew, we can say they're Crit Table III, or whatever. I'm wondering if the wording should be changed to Crit Type instead of Table.

Dislikes: The charts in general. I think they're too long, specific and restrictive. I like it better when the GM (or even the players) can take liberties with the gory details, but the mechanical effects are standardized. For example Crit Table III, roll 9, should just read: +2d6 damage, target loses 10' movement. With maybe an example in parenthesis (damage to legs). I think the chart should be short enough to fit on the character sheet, maybe 12 (0 or less to 10+) possibilities per table.
Reverend Dakota Jesus Ultimak, S.S.M.o.t.S.M.S., D.M.

(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons

jmucchiello
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by jmucchiello » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:52 pm

reverenddak wrote:For example Crit Table III, roll 9, should just read: +2d6 damage, target loses 10' movement. With maybe an example in parenthesis (damage to legs). I think the chart should be short enough to fit on the character sheet, maybe 12 (0 or less to 10+) possibilities per table.
But then GG can't sell you an eight page GM Screen full of fun charts!!

User avatar
reverenddak
Moderator
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:04 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by reverenddak » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:04 pm

jmucchiello wrote:But then GG can't sell you an eight page GM Screen full of fun charts!!
But I don't use a GM screen!!! :wink:
Reverend Dakota Jesus Ultimak, S.S.M.o.t.S.M.S., D.M.

(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons

jmucchiello
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by jmucchiello » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:08 pm

Yet

User avatar
mshensley
Mighty-Thewed Reaver
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:39 am
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by mshensley » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:46 am

What critical hit charts do monsters use? And what do they crit on? 20's only?

jmucchiello
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by jmucchiello » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:53 am

It should probably be in the damage line of the monster:

Orc: Init +1; Atk claw +1 melee (dmg 1d4 crit d16/III) or as weapon +1 (crit d14/II); AC 11 + armor; HD 1d8+1; MV 30’; Act 1d20; SV Fort +2, Ref +0, Will -1; AL CE; XP XXX.

Ogre: Init +2; Atk slam +5 melee (dmg 1d6+6 crit d24/IV) or great mace +5 melee (dmg 1d8+6 crit 19-20/d24/V); AC 16; HD 4d8+4; MV 20’; Act 1d20; SP bear hug; SV Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +1; AL CN; XP XXX.

Although, based on reports of the already high lethality of the system, this might be overkill.

User avatar
mshensley
Mighty-Thewed Reaver
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:39 am
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by mshensley » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:55 am

There needs to be an invisible turtle in here somewhere.

talmor
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 4:38 pm

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by talmor » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:01 am

jmucchiello wrote:But then GG can't sell you an eight page GM Screen full of fun charts!!
So long as it's in landscape format, I'm happy.

Harley Stroh
Cold-Hearted Immortal
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:02 am
Location: On the run.
Contact:

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by Harley Stroh » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:21 pm

mshensley wrote:There needs to be an invisible turtle in here somewhere.
We intentionally left out the invisible turtles. Too easy to trip over.

//H
The lucky guy who got to write some Dungeon Crawl Classics.

DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.

User avatar
reverenddak
Moderator
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:04 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by reverenddak » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:03 pm

further thoughts...

We need Monster Crit Charts! At-least Crit tables for these generic monsters.

Any suggestions for which tables I should use for now? My first instinct is Table III, IV, and V depending on HD. And what die? Probably copy the Warrior again?
Reverend Dakota Jesus Ultimak, S.S.M.o.t.S.M.S., D.M.

(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons

Harley Stroh
Cold-Hearted Immortal
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:02 am
Location: On the run.
Contact:

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by Harley Stroh » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:25 pm

They exist! (But weren't included in the Beta. I need to check w/ Joseph as to why.)

I think your instincts are on track. A decent workaround until the monster crits are out.

//H
The lucky guy who got to write some Dungeon Crawl Classics.

DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.

User avatar
Dreamslinger
Far-Sighted Wanderer
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:25 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by Dreamslinger » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:59 pm

reverenddak wrote:
Dislikes: The charts in general. I think they're too long, specific and restrictive. I like it better when the GM (or even the players) can take liberties with the gory details, but the mechanical effects are standardized. For example Crit Table III, roll 9, should just read: +2d6 damage, target loses 10' movement. With maybe an example in parenthesis (damage to legs). I think the chart should be short enough to fit on the character sheet, maybe 12 (0 or less to 10+) possibilities per table.
Looking at the charts it looks like there is going to need to be a bit of player/GM poetic license with the results.


I'm not sure how a Thief's blow with a club would "Strike through the ear canal enters the brain" or how Warrior's "Hammering strike to torso crushes lesser organs to paste." would happen with a dagger. I

That said, I think the charts are a great aid for more descriptive combats. They're a good start from players and GMs that have grown accustomed to hour long combats that aren't much more than "I use power X for Y damage and mechanical effect Z" and "I shift 1 square to get a flanking bonus".

It's a pretty easy to ad-lib a more appropriate description or reproduce the charts with nothing but crunchy bits. I think the descriptions of the crit results do a lot to set the tone of the game and help get gamers who grew up with 3.5 and 4e into the spirit of things.
Magic: 40% of the time it works every time.

jmucchiello
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by jmucchiello » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:34 pm

Dreamslinger wrote:I'm not sure how a Thief's blow with a club would "Strike through the ear canal enters the brain" or how Warrior's "Hammering strike to torso crushes lesser organs to paste." would happen with a dagger.
Well, a club that enters the brain via the ear probably rips the face clean off as well. And a organ crush dagger probably went in sideways and out the back.

Someone previously stated that the crit charts should be move mechanical and put the descriptions in parentheses as examples.

goodmangames
Cold-Hearted Immortal
Posts: 2701
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:41 pm
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by goodmangames » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:45 pm

Dreamslinger wrote:That said, I think the charts are a great aid for more descriptive combats. They're a good start from players and GMs that have grown accustomed to hour long combats that aren't much more than "I use power X for Y damage and mechanical effect Z" and "I shift 1 square to get a flanking bonus".

It's a pretty easy to ad-lib a more appropriate description or reproduce the charts with nothing but crunchy bits. I think the descriptions of the crit results do a lot to set the tone of the game and help get gamers who grew up with 3.5 and 4e into the spirit of things.
That's the idea. I routinely "fudge" the descriptive part of the results. After a while it becomes easy and fun...it just flows from the circumstances of the combat.

As for monsters, the final rules include specific crit tables for un-dead, demons, giants, dragons, and a couple other iconic monster types that I'm forgetting. Dragon crits are awesome. :) There's also a generic monster crit table, and the various humanoid types use the warrior crit tables.
Joseph Goodman
Goodman Games
www.goodman-games.com

Harley Stroh
Cold-Hearted Immortal
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:02 am
Location: On the run.
Contact:

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by Harley Stroh » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:47 pm

Super secret monster crits can be found here:

http://www.goodman-games.com/downloads/ ... 032011.doc


//H
The lucky guy who got to write some Dungeon Crawl Classics.

DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.

User avatar
finarvyn
Cold-Hearted Immortal
Posts: 2482
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:42 am
FLGS: Fair Game
Location: Chicago suburbs
Contact:

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by finarvyn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:10 pm

mshensley wrote:There needs to be an invisible turtle in here somewhere.
Harley Stroh wrote:They exist! (But weren't included in the Beta. I need to check w/ Joseph as to why.)
Really neat what you can do with copy-paste. :lol:

----------------------

As to crit tables, it is strange that this didn't make it into the Beta rules. I'd guess it's an oversight and not a conspiracy. :oops:

Or is it? Hmmm. :wink:
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson

Harley Stroh
Cold-Hearted Immortal
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:02 am
Location: On the run.
Contact:

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by Harley Stroh » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:12 am

finarvyn wrote:As to crit tables, it is strange that this didn't make it into the Beta rules. I'd guess it's an oversight and not a conspiracy. :oops:

Or is it? Hmmm. :wink:
We were afraid to overload you with awesomeness. ;)

//H
The lucky guy who got to write some Dungeon Crawl Classics.

DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.

jmucchiello
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by jmucchiello » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:06 pm

Harley Stroh wrote:We were afraid to overload you with awesomeness. ;)
Look, let me go back in there and face the peril.

User avatar
finarvyn
Cold-Hearted Immortal
Posts: 2482
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:42 am
FLGS: Fair Game
Location: Chicago suburbs
Contact:

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by finarvyn » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:04 pm

jmucchiello wrote:
Harley Stroh wrote:We were afraid to overload you with awesomeness. ;)
Look, let me go back in there and face the peril.
Nope. It's too perilous! :P

Nice to find a fellow "Monty Python" fan! 8)
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson

weezoh
Far-Sighted Wanderer
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:58 am

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by weezoh » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am

finarvyn wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
Harley Stroh wrote:We were afraid to overload you with awesomeness. ;)
Look, let me go back in there and face the peril.
Nope. It's too perilous! :P

Nice to find a fellow "Monty Python" fan! 8)
I don't think you could swing a dead bishop around here and not hit one :wink:

jmucchiello
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by jmucchiello » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:21 pm

It's the Bishop!!

nanstreet
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:41 am

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by nanstreet » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:23 am

Having seen the imfamous 8-panel DMing screen in picture recently (that's 8-panels, 16 sides, mostly charts and some artwork, apparently), I am again feeling trepidation about the ammount of charts in this game.

Having looked over the critical hit charts, there seems to be a lot of redundancy. Is there any reason some of them couldn't be combined, and simply have greater dice with the potential to roll higher numbers be what differentiates one class from another?

jmucchiello
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am

Re: Critical Hit Chart, first thoughts...

Post by jmucchiello » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:23 am

nanstreet wrote:Having looked over the critical hit charts, there seems to be a lot of redundancy. Is there any reason some of them couldn't be combined, and simply have greater dice with the potential to roll higher numbers be what differentiates one class from another?
I would prefer this as well. If there were to be multiple different charts they should be by attack type (piercing vs slashing vs bashing vs bite vs energy (fire, electricity, etc) ).

Locked

Return to “Playtest Feedback: Combat”