Goodman Games

Will the Beta version only be for low-level characters and how far is it from completion ?

Just interested as I wonder if we're discussing stuff that has already been decided upon. Would it be more helpful to be focussing on something else ?

Has there been any playtesting at higher (5+) levels ?

As Joseph's current plan is the 0-5 level range, I suspect that no high level playtests have occured.

Well, the beta version went off to the editor a couple days ago, so I'd say it's pretty complete. Of course it's a document that is designed to be "fiddled with," since there will be lots of player input once it's released. So don't consider it "done" - just "frozen in time" for a moment so the editor can work on it, before it is unleashed to the public.

More and more, I am seeing level 6-10 play as distinct from level 1-5 play. Remember the "level scale" here -- unlike 3E and 4E where the game is supposed to go to level 20 or 30, DCC RPG is a throwback to 1974 play where accomplishing 6th level was a huge deal. As such, I'm now inclined toward keeping the core book focused on level 1-5. The beta rules will focus on levels 1-5.

goodmangames wrote:Well, the beta version went off to the editor a couple days ago, so I'd say it's pretty complete. Of course it's a document that is designed to be "fiddled with," since there will be lots of player input once it's released. So don't consider it "done" - just "frozen in time" for a moment so the editor can work on it, before it is unleashed to the public.

That is excellent news. Depending on the other work commitments of your editor, it looks like this is on track for a June release to the public (if not maybe a bit earlier....?) I know the devil is in the details, but it must feel good to have the bulk of the project completed and upon which you can add the chrome and polish. Congrats.

goodmangames wrote:More and more, I am seeing level 6-10 play as distinct from level 1-5 play.

Sounds good to me

I am looking forward to the playtest/BETA rules. But I also hope to see some form of timescale as to when we would see the expert set???

goodmangames wrote:More and more, I am seeing level 6-10 play as distinct from level 1-5 play. Remember the "level scale" here -- unlike 3E and 4E where the game is supposed to go to level 20 or 30, DCC RPG is a throwback to 1974 play where accomplishing 6th level was a huge deal. As such, I'm now inclined toward keeping the core book focused on level 1-5. The beta rules will focus on levels 1-5.

Congrats on the Beta heading to the editor's.

Not to be "thick" about it here, but you are saying that anything above level 5 will be covered...where? Won't be covered? If I remember correctly you were anticipating that the core rule book would be released and then, possibly on an annual schedule, there would be supplements released. Are you possibly holding the "higher levels" for a supplement?

The reason I ask is that I'm having a hard time imagining trying to "sell this" to my group as a campaign alternative if it doesn't go past level 5. They are big fans of long campaigns...and even if it takes an extended amount of time to level up, they'll balk if they see a fantasy RPG that only "goes to 5". This circles around to an earlier question I had about hearing some of the details regarding the game in campaign play.

I'd love to hear the details of things like this...Where are characters after say, a year of weekly play? If still at level 2 or 3...why? Cause they died about a dozen times and had to start over? Or the game progresses that slowly? Whatever...this is something that might be helpful to hear. Because, to be honest, if it takes this long to bring a character up to the pinnacle, level 5, how could we fairly test such a thing between the Beta Release in June and November, when the game is scheduled to be released?

Just curious.

I for one would vote for higher levels. (At least 9th, name level.)

goodmangames wrote:More and more, I am seeing level 6-10 play as distinct from level 1-5 play. Remember the "level scale" here -- unlike 3E and 4E where the game is supposed to go to level 20 or 30, DCC RPG is a throwback to 1974 play where accomplishing 6th level was a huge deal. As such, I'm now inclined toward keeping the core book focused on level 1-5. The beta rules will focus on levels 1-5.

May I suggest a Middle Path?

Levels 1-10 sounds artificial, inorganic, machine-like, and arbitrary.

Levels 1-5 sounds like half of 1-10, and thus not a complete game.

How about levels 1-7? Consider:

1. By having levels top-out at something that is not a round number, it makes people think, "Hey, there are reasons why levels go up to level 7, no more and no less." Contrast that with levels 1-10 for DCC RPG, or levels 1-20 for 3rd edition, or levels 1-30 for 4th edition. Those level-cut-offs (10, 20, 30) are so arbitrary. Why not level 28? Or level 19? Or etc? The only reason for cut-offs at 10, 20, or 30 is that those numbers end with a 0. That's hardy reassuring.

2. The number 7 has a ton of mystical, occult, and historical significance behind it: the 7 hills of Rome, the 7 Wonders of the World, the seven visible planetoi (Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn), the 7-day week, the ubiquity of the number 7 in the Apocalypse, the 7 Deadly Sins, the 7 Virtues, the 7 Sacraments, the 7 Heavens, the 7 chakras, etc.

3. In the 1974 D&D rules, clerics gain the power of raising the dead at 7th level.

4. The 1974 D&D rules have 6 levels of spells. Bump that up to 7 levels of spells for the DCC RPG. That way you could simplify things: 4th-level spell-casters can cast spells of up to 4th-level, etc. (Contrast that with the much-less intuitive D&Dism of, for example, not being able to cast 7th-level spells until you're 13th level.)

mntnjeff wrote:Not to be "thick" about it here, but you are saying that anything above level 5 will be covered...where? Won't be covered? If I remember correctly you were anticipating that the core rule book would be released and then, possibly on an annual schedule, there would be supplements released. Are you possibly holding the "higher levels" for a supplement?

I'm sure I read on another thread that stuff for levels 6-10 will be in one of the annuals. It's not that these levels won't be covered, they just won't be in the core rulebook. If adventuring at levels 6-10 is qualitively different than 1-5 (and given the power levels, I think it should be) then I believe that this is a good idea. Higher level play requires a different level of detail. Im my opinion it's better to keep the core focussed on 'basic' play so ideas sink in.

mntnjeff wrote:Because, to be honest, if it takes this long to bring a character up to the pinnacle, level 5, how could we fairly test such a thing between the Beta Release in June and November, when the game is scheduled to be released?

Unless you spent a year with different groups playtesting regularly then there is always that compromise. Very few games (especially nowadays) emerge through play (the so-called 'Organic' playtesting). 'Artificial' playtesting is the norm, you try a scenario with different levels, you try bog-standard encounters with a 3:2 ratio (e.g. goblins/PCs at 1st level) compared to D&D, that kind of thing. It's a lot more manageable to try out 5 levels than 10, given that higher-level play has many more variables given the increase in options.

But that's just crunch, an introductory adventure that isn't bland is vital to get the feel of the game in a short time. Also, if we test out the modules using the same module, and maybe agree on others, the playtesters get a shared experience and generate a wealth of useful results.

The brutal reality of the RPG industry is that few games get the playtesting they need, especially at higher levels. It needn't be that way with the DCC rpg. It helps that it's based on d20, there's a sound base for comparison. But it's up to us. I've pre-ordered so I've got a stake in it being worth my time discussing and testing

Geoffrey wrote:How about levels 1-7?

Please. God. This.

If nothing else.

smathis wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:How about levels 1-7?

Please. God. This.

If nothing else.

I suspect he can't as long as spells are one per page. Adding two levels increases the spell spaces requirements by 33% and monster space requirements by at least 28% (depending on the complexity of higher level monsters). Even if there are only 5 cleric and 5 wizard 4th level spells, that's an extra 10 pages eaten up by spells.

But, I agree. Levels 1-7 would be better than 1-5 from the perspective of getting others to sit down for a game.

Geoffrey wrote: Levels 1-10 sounds artificial, inorganic, machine-like, and arbitrary.

Levels 1-5 sounds like half of 1-10, and thus not a complete game.

Actually, 10 works well with a system where you acquire the ability to cast a new spell level at 1,3,5,7, and 9th levels.

How about levels 1-7? Consider:

Geoffrey wrote:3. In the 1974 D&D rules, clerics gain the power of raising the dead at 7th level.

I am not against resurrection. I think it does need to be in the game, you can ignore it but a mechanic should exist for it.

Geoffrey wrote:4. The 1974 D&D rules have 6 levels of spells. Bump that up to 7 levels of spells for the DCC RPG. That way you could simplify things: 4th-level spell-casters can cast spells of up to 4th-level, etc. (Contrast that with the much-less intuitive D&Dism of, for example, not being able to cast 7th-level spells until you're 13th level.)

*Nods* That is not a bad concept. I know it strays a little too close to 4e for myself... sorta sends shivers. But the concept is solid and works extraordinary well with DCC RPG because you no longer have level spell slots, but instead spells known. I think that concept should make the game.

Plus, it makes the calculation of DC for spells even easier. 11+spell level. No 'multiplication' math to confuse anyone.

goodmangames wrote:Well, the beta version went off to the editor a couple days ago, so I'd say it's pretty complete.

W00t! Mid-summer release?

joela wrote:

goodmangames wrote:Well, the beta version went off to the editor a couple days ago, so I'd say it's pretty complete.

W00t! Mid-summer release?

Target date for the PDF beta version is Free RPG Day or, hopefully, a few days before. It'll all come down to the wire.