The forgotten class...

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smathis
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by smathis »

geordie racer wrote:The main reason I like Skillburn is that it promotes daring, the feature most common to the Appendix N thieves.
I like it because of that too.
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by geordie racer »

Any chance of an update on what's happening with the thief class ?
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by goodmangames »

The beta rules will contain a "conventional" thief class (similar to what's been playtested, for anyone who has been in a game). I'm still mulling over ideas (including some of the good ones in this thread). I need to put a few things into writing and then actually play a few games with different approaches. I think I also need to go back and review some of the Appendix N literature on thieves - return to the source and make sure I'm reflecting everything appropriately. So, basically, not sure yet... :)
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by Ravenheart87 »

Thieves should get tables for their skills! Ie.: with a really good Hide in Shadows check, tha thief is automatically transformed into a shadow ninja demon, while with a fumble, he's eaten by a grue... Also, they may gain bonus XP for being a jerk, like Cugel.
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geordie racer
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by geordie racer »

Ravenheart87 wrote:Thieves should get tables for their skills! Ie.: with a really good Hide in Shadows check, tha thief is automatically transformed into a shadow ninja demon
Maybe like how Jack of Shadows (high level Appendix N uber-thief) is empowered by the presence of shadows.
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geordie racer
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by geordie racer »

Actually looking over the Appendix N Thieves - are there any that don't use magic or powers ?


(and I don't mean supporting characters like the doomed thief in Tower of the Elephant, or Conan - as he's not just a thief, or Bilbo)


Maybe Tunnels & Trolls is a better fit with Appendix N with it's Rogue class than D&D's Thief.
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by JRR »

I'd like to see the thief as a lightly armored mobile fighter. Maybe just trade any armor other than studded leather (or elven chain) and any weapon larger and heavier than a long sword for the various thieving skills and call it a day. He'd also need to lose the keep and replace it with a thieves guild. Oh and evasion needs to go. He's a thief, not a ninja.
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Re: The forgotten class...

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JRR wrote:I'd like to see the thief as a lightly armored mobile fighter. Maybe just trade any armor other than studded leather (or elven chain) and any weapon larger and heavier than a long sword for the various thieving skills and call it a day. He'd also need to lose the keep and replace it with a thieves guild. Oh and evasion needs to go. He's a thief, not a ninja.
I'm going between this and then just the idea of a class that is a Skillmonkey class. A general class that knows stuff and can do stuff but is more a-la-carte than Thieves in D&D.

So I could design a Sherlock Holmes type character with this class. Or Cugel. Or Grey Mouser. Or Jack Sparrow. Or Lara Croft. Or a Ranger. All based on what types of Skills, Backgrounds, whatever I pick for them in play.

I think it would be nice for the Thief to be a "catch-all" sort of class that can fill in the holes that Wizard, Fighter and Cleric don't address.

It's just finding a way to make those abilities fun in comparison to the other classes, IMO.
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by Ogrepuppy »

goodmangames wrote:I appreciate the suggestions and agree that the thief needs to feel more special. Just not sure yet how to do it.
Thank you. I happen to adore the class, myself.
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by finarvyn »

geordie racer wrote:Actually looking over the Appendix N Thieves - are there any that don't use magic or powers ?
smathis wrote:
JRR wrote:I think it would be nice for the Thief to be a "catch-all" sort of class that can fill in the holes that Wizard, Fighter and Cleric don't address.
These are interesting questions, and perhaps it would be worth looking through Appendix N again to find examples of thieves so we can determine what kinds of traits they have in common.

I suspect that there aren't any "pure" thieves (other than perhaps Bilbo) among the App N characters. Certainly Jack of Shadows has magic, Fafhrd has fighting, Mouser has fighting and a tiny hint of magic, and so on.

The "catch all" concept is neat and reminds me of the Bard class a little -- some fighting, some thievery, some magic -- and maybe that's the direction that the thief could go....

I'd like to see a good list before the rules change too much, however, since those "catch all" characters could be simulated easily enough by multi-class rules. If the rules contain a thief-only class it's easy to "build" complex character combinations, but if the rules contain a "catch all" class it's hard to create a standard thief.

Just my two coppers.
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geordie racer
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by geordie racer »

finarvyn wrote:some fighting, some thievery, some magic.
Whereas I believe this is closer to Appendix N than the standard thief I don't like the idea of a jack-of-all-trades without a broad area of increasing expertise. Warriors get MDoAs and Wizards Spellburn, the Thief needs something as cool and useful. Something that differs from the D&D Thief that can apply in wilderness, city and dungeon. Which is why I prefer the skillmonkey (with skillburn) concept.
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by Hamakto »

geordie racer wrote:
finarvyn wrote:some fighting, some thievery, some magic.
Whereas I believe this is closer to Appendix N than the standard thief I don't like the idea of a jack-of-all-trades without a broad area of increasing expertise. Warriors get MDoAs and Wizards Spellburn, the Thief needs something as cool and useful. Something that differs from the D&D Thief that can apply in wilderness, city and dungeon. Which is why I prefer the skillmonkey (with skillburn) concept.
After playing the thief some more, I think that a possible source of uniqueness for a thief is that they are more lucky than other classes. Because of that, they would gain luck much more quickly so they would be willing to burn luck to accomplish their skill checks.
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by GnomeBoy »

Hamakto wrote:After playing the thief some more, I think that a possible source of uniqueness for a thief is that they are more lucky than other classes. Because of that, they would gain luck much more quickly so they would be willing to burn luck to accomplish their skill checks.
Which brings up a question: In the playtest I was in, we had randomly determined classes, and of course, randomly determined stats.

In the regular game would you have a randomly determined class? Would you pick a class before rolling for stats?

Woe to the randomly-determined thief with the randomly-determined low Luck score...
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by geordie racer »

Sounds like it's stats first, then background is randomly rolled, then for the 0-level PC who becomes your character, you pick a class:
goodmangames wrote: from a character creation point of view, stats are determined randomly (3d6 straight down the line), and the combination of multiple PCs and high death rates at low levels means your resulting character is ALSO determined randomly. You may start out with a blacksmith, an elf ranger, and a farmer. By the time they finish the first adventure, you're left with one or maybe two of them -- you can't predict which ones -- and that's your character, with his 3d6-down-the-line stats and battle scars from his first level 0 expedition. What class do you pick? Well, between his Luck score (which influences some element of potential class choice...more on that later) and his native abilities (high Str? high Int? etc.), there will probably be a class that seems like a natural choice. But the party must be balanced! And not every one of the party's 0-level PCs will be perfectly suited to every class. So you may end up with a character who's not optimized for his class. In fact, you probably WILL end up with a non-optimal character. And, frankly, that's a lot of fun.
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by GnomeBoy »

Thanks for that -- I was forgetting that 0-level is pre-Class.

I don't agree 100% that "the party must be balanced!" however, but that's another discussion...
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by goodmangames »

I've recently been playtesting some alternate thief builds, including some of the suggestions in this thread (converted in some cases to slightly different rules interpretations of the same concept). Just wanted to say thanks for the ideas. The thief class is definitely evolving in a positive way.

Although it's going to drive the editor nuts because he's going to have to re-edit the thief class for the beta rules. :)
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by nanstreet »

goodmangames wrote:Although it's going to drive the editor nuts because he's going to have to re-edit the thief class for the beta rules. :)
This means we are getting the new ideas in the Beta? YAY!
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Re: The forgotten class...

Post by smathis »

nanstreet wrote:This means we are getting the new ideas in the Beta? YAY!
Seconded. I think this is great. It will be fun to find out how the Thief has changed.
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