The forgotten class...

[Hamakto]

There has been extensive discussion on the forums about the Wizard, Cleric and Warrior... but very little about the Thief.

Each of the other classes has a fairly unique way the class is run to provide mechanical difference to the play. (

1. Wizards lose spells on failure, corruption chances, etc
2. Cleric have a disfavor of their Deity by a possible negative cumulative chance for casting spells
3. Warriors get MDoA actions

But what do Thief's get? Held upside down and shaken?

Right now the Thief is the skill class. They get a bunch of different skills for their actions. But no really cool class mechanic that screams unique.

For those that played in the play tests, what do you think the thief should get as a mechanic?

Several ideas would be

• to do a STA (Sneaky Thief Action) type ability. Where instead of getting a +5 on his pick lock roll, he would roll a d20+d10+DEX or INT bonus. If they roll a X or higher then avoid the failed result on missing the roll. (where X would be the trap level)
• Be able to steal abilities from other characters. They would have a chance to pull off an ability of another class... MDoA or cast a wizard spell. Not sure how a cleric would fit in here yet.
• Do a little more of a 2e thief where they would be able to put different dice points into various thief skills... or even combat skills. This would work in conjunction with the option above as they would decrease thief abilities to gain a chance to do MDoA or cast a wizard spell.

As far as things that need to be improved for the class:

1. Back stab: As written it is very 1e-ish. And basically not terribly useful.
2. I had a second one here, but it just escaped me....

Just is not really a hard and fast idea out here, but instead it is a jumping off point for (hopefully) a brainstorm of ideas.

[JRR]

I like the 1e thief, except as you mention, backstab sucks. I propose making backstab do no extra damage, but instead impose a save or die. This way the thief can do his job - sneak in and dispose of the guard. It should only work if the target is completely unaware of the thief, none of this flanking crap.

[geordie racer]

I like the 1e thief, except as you mention, backstab sucks. I propose making backstab do no extra damage, but instead impose a save or die. This way the thief can do his job - sneak in and dispose of the guard. It should only work if the target is completely unaware of the thief, none of this flanking crap.

I think I read somewhere that a successful DCC backstab allows the thief an automatic roll on the critical hit table.

Several ideas would be

• to do a STA (Sneaky Thief Action) type ability. Where instead of getting a +5 on his pick lock roll, he would roll a d20+d10+DEX or INT bonus. If they roll a X or higher then avoid the failed result on missing the roll. (where X would be the trap level)
• Be able to steal abilities from other characters. They would have a chance to pull off an ability of another class... MDoA or cast a wizard spell. Not sure how a cleric would fit in here yet.

- STA, I would probably work a level-based dice type into the equation.

- 'steal abilities' - I think the dcc backstab gives enough of a flavourful combat ability. To gain any magic ability (other than reading an arcane scroll - with a greater chance of misfire than an MU) I reckon they need to be invoking dark powers. Some things are best left to a specialised MU or cleric. I don't want the thief to become a jack-of-all-trades who doesn't need ally himself with warriors and wizards.


Am I right in that the type of thief in DCC is influenced by alignment ?

[smathis]

• to do a STA (Sneaky Thief Action) type ability. Where instead of getting a +5 on his pick lock roll, he would roll a d20+d10+DEX or INT bonus. If they roll a X or higher then avoid the failed result on missing the roll. (where X would be the trap level)
• Be able to steal abilities from other characters. They would have a chance to pull off an ability of another class... MDoA or cast a wizard spell. Not sure how a cleric would fit in here yet.
• Do a little more of a 2e thief where they would be able to put different dice points into various thief skills... or even combat skills. This would work in conjunction with the option above as they would decrease thief abilities to gain a chance to do MDoA or cast a wizard spell.

As far as things that need to be improved for the class:

1. Back stab: As written it is very 1e-ish. And basically not terribly useful.
2. I had a second one here, but it just escaped me....

Just is not really a hard and fast idea out here, but instead it is a jumping off point for (hopefully) a brainstorm of ideas.

Good post, Andy. Thanks for opening the discussion.

I was under the impression that Thieves got MDAs. So my bad there.

I like JRR's take on backstab -- with the addenda that instead of "Save or Die" the Thief could opt to make it "Save or Knocked Out". Probably influenced by how the Thief is attacking the guard as well -- dagger or short sword versus blackjack or Vulcan Nerve Pinch.

I think the Thief "skills" make them standout. Maybe they get STAs like you mentioned. That could be cool. I think DCC's take on what Thief skills mean could be helpful too. As in, "anyone can hide behind something... but a Thief can Hide in a Freaking Shadow!!! Anyone can try to move quietly, sneaking along... but a Thief can move without making ANY NOISE AT ALL!!! Anyone can climb a rock face or a structure with handholds and such... but a Thief can Climb a sheer wall!!!" I think that goes a long way towards distinguishing a Thief.

I was also under the impression that a Thief's "skills" are determined by their alignment. Don't know if I love that yet or not.

Sad to hear that backstab is the lame AD&D version. Fix that ****.

[mshensley]

Am I right in that the type of thief in DCC is influenced by alignment ?

i recall that being said somewhere

[Hamakto]

Am I right in that the type of thief in DCC is influenced by alignment ?

i recall that being said somewhere

I think I remember hearing that, but I do not have enough information to confirm or deny that. I do have a question...

Each of the other classes have a cool new mechanic, but the Thief has nothing special and new. Is it that important? I talked to a few people who played the Thief's and they were not impressed with the characters.

Comments and ideas?

[GnomeBoy]

As of February, a Thief's 'skills' were determined by the character's alignment. That could have changed since then, or been expanded or de-emphasized.

I didn't play one, and wasn't sitting next to anyone playing one, so I'm not much help on Thieves beyond that...

[nanstreet]

do a STA (Sneaky Thief Action) type ability.

I like the name you propose for this!

Where instead of getting a +5 on his pick lock roll, he would roll a d20+d10+DEX or INT bonus. If they roll a X or higher then avoid the failed result on missing the roll. (where X would be the trap level)

I like this idea. I love the idea of MDoA, and I think the mechanic could work in other situations as well.

Be able to steal abilities from other characters. They would have a chance to pull off an ability of another class... MDoA or cast a wizard spell. Not sure how a cleric would fit in here yet.

I don't think the Thief should copy what other classes do. I think instead they should be strong in their niche.

As far as things that need to be improved for the class:

1. Back stab: As written it is very 1e-ish. And basically not terribly useful.

Yeah, that's boring. That they have a good chance of scoring a critical on a sneak attack critical sounds good. I would like to see them have a good chance of stunning or dazing whoever they sneak attacked if they didn't drop them in one hit.

[JRR]

I think the Thief "skills" make them standout. Maybe they get STAs like you mentioned. That could be cool. I think DCC's take on what Thief skills mean could be helpful too. As in, "anyone can hide behind something... but a Thief can Hide in a Freaking Shadow!!! Anyone can try to move quietly, sneaking along... but a Thief can move without making ANY NOISE AT ALL!!! Anyone can climb a rock face or a structure with handholds and such... but a Thief can Climb a sheer wall!!!" I think that goes a long way towards distinguishing a Thief.

I'd also like to see thief skills a bit different than D20. Moving silently should not be an opposed roll. If I'm moving silently, I'm making no noise. If I'm making no noise, how do you hear me? The roll should be based on the thief's skills alone. One roll, made by the thief is also a lot faster. You don't have to stop and look up a listen or perception skill, or make one up on the fly for a barebones npc. Just have the player roll, maybe add a modifier for terrain and you're done.
As you note above, anyone should be able to hide given something to hide behind. You can't find the child hiding behind the couch until you actually look behind the couch, which is something that should be roleplayed out, not handled by a generic search roll every time the party enters a room. Hearing them is a bit different, a listen check is appropriate for most people, but if it's a thief, you don't GET a listen check because he is moving silently, there's nothing to hear.

[smathis]

I'd also like to see thief skills a bit different than D20. Moving silently should not be an opposed roll. If I'm moving silently, I'm making no noise. If I'm making no noise, how do you hear me? The roll should be based on the thief's skills alone. One roll, made by the thief is also a lot faster. You don't have to stop and look up a listen or perception skill, or make one up on the fly for a barebones npc. Just have the player roll, maybe add a modifier for terrain and you're done.
As you note above, anyone should be able to hide given something to hide behind. You can't find the child hiding behind the couch until you actually look behind the couch, which is something that should be roleplayed out, not handled by a generic search roll every time the party enters a room. Hearing them is a bit different, a listen check is appropriate for most people, but if it's a thief, you don't GET a listen check because he is moving silently, there's nothing to hear.

Definitely. Conan could climb the Tower of the Elephant because he was a Thief! Normal schmoe wouldn't have gotten a chance to roll.

A Thief just melds into shadows like a Ninja. Other people hide behind trees.

Anybody can clobber a lock or try to open it with some Thieves Picks. Thieves can look at a lock and pop them open with a twig.

Anyone can try to find a trap and attempt to dismantle it. The player of a Thief can narrate how he disables the trap. Maybe it's like Fonzie hitting the jukebox...

Anyone can try to pick somebody's pocket. But when a Thief does it, it's so slick the target doesn't even get a chance to notice it.

And nail on the head with Move Silently. A thief is so quiet there's no noise to be heard.

I think a lot of potential Thief abilities (tracking, etc) can be extrapolated out with a "But when a Thief..." Then again, this could all just be the result of an SDA. Thief-Skillmonkeys roll skills regularly but when they get a 3 or better on that "other die" they get a "But when a Thief..." result.

In that way, the "Thief" class can be anything they want to be. Want a Hunter? Take a Skillmonkey and roll some SDAs on Tracking? Want a Silver-Tongued Devil? Roll some SDAs on Bluff. Want a Loremaster? Roll some SDAs on History, Religion and Arcana!

Probably should be some sort of "limit" on the set (or type) of checks a Skillmonkey could roll SDAs on. But I think that's pretty easy to figure out.

[Hamakto]

In that way, the "Thief" class can be anything they want to be. Want a Hunter? Take a Skillmonkey and roll some SDAs on Tracking? Want a Silver-Tongued Devil? Roll some SDAs on Bluff. Want a Loremaster? Roll some SDAs on History, Religion and Arcana!

Probably should be some sort of "limit" on the set (or type) of checks a Skillmonkey could roll SDAs on. But I think that's pretty easy to figure out.

That is a good idea. I am going to extend it out a bit... so please stick with me here.

thief's get a skill die like fighters get a combat die.

the skill die progresses as the thief progresses in levels... Just like the fighter.

A stealth check is an opposed check in the game. I do not want to change that.

But we extend it out for a Thief with the following modifications.

If the extra die hits one of the two criteria...

1. 3 or higher --- base line minimum
2. And equal to or higher than the opponents level

When doing many of the thief skills, you are really doing checks counter to the opponents spot/listen/etc... checks. It would really be unbalancing to have a thief be 100% successful at a stealth check against a dragon because they rolled a 3 or higher on the extra die.

This could apply for most any of the Thief skills.

Disarm Traps --- anyone can disarm but a thief would not set off the trap on a die roll of X where X equals the trap's 'level'. Even if they failed the skill check.

Pick Pockets --- Against a level 5 warrior. If they roll a 5 or less, then it is an opposed check. If they roll 5 or higher and succeed against a base DC, he cannot notice the attempt no matter what his counter roll was.

I am still feeling this out a bit on the exact rule definitions, but I think this would be workable and not bog down the game too much.

It would provide extra power to the Thief, without making them 'world bending' stealth machines by 10th level.

[smathis]

It would provide extra power to the Thief, without making them 'world bending' stealth machines by 10th level.

It's my understanding that an MDA doesn't happen unless an attack hits. So I couldn't see an SDA succeeding unless a skill check succeeded.

You make a good point about moving silently and hiding. Maybe the SDA in those cases just improves the capability of the Thieves in those situations. So a thief rolling an SDA on Move Silently (or Stealth) -- as well as exceeding the opponent's Listen roll -- gets full movement. Or maybe it rolls a bonus over to an attack or something.

While a thief rolling an SDA on hiding -- and exceeding the opponent's Spot or Search whatever DCC uses, gets... um... I don't know. But maybe this is a nudge in the right direction?

It's hard to say how this is going to be handled in DCC. Hopefully Joseph or someone can chime in on the skillmonkeys.

[JRR]

A stealth check is an opposed check in the game. I do not want to change that.
It would really be unbalancing to have a thief be 100% successful at a stealth check against a dragon because they rolled a 3 or higher on the extra die.

I don't see it as unbalancing. Remember The Hobbit? "Well, thief? I smell you, I feel your air - and I hear your breath." Even if Bilbo had been a more accomplished thief and made his move silently check, the dragon would still have known he was there. A thief SHOULD be good at moving silently. Move silently should not be opposed. You can't hear silence. Besides, there are other ways to detect someone's presence. Infravision trumps hide in shadows, for example.

[goodmangames]

Thanks for the ideas, everyone. Right now the thief class is the most traditional of the four main classes in DCC RPG. A couple quick clarifiers:

* You're right that alignment influences thief skills; it's the "build", so to speak, but the core skills are all aligned around the traditional D&D skills.
* In DCC RPG, a thief's backstab causes an automatic critical.

I like the ideas around clarifying "here's the difference when a thief sneaks silently / picks pockets / etc."

In game terms, 3E turned the thief into a "tactical flanking machine," whereas in 1E, my main memory of thieves was moving silently, hiding, climbing, and pickpocketing (at least in my campaigns). Part of the challenge Andy points out is that the 3E notion of "thieves can do more damage in combat by flanking" doesn't really exist in DCC RPG (no tactical battle grid) and unless an adventure contains challenges in which a thief can shine, the thief doesn't feel very special. Especially compared to a wizard and warrior and cleric, all of whom have fun new mechanics!

I appreciate the suggestions and agree that the thief needs to feel more special. Just not sure yet how to do it.

[smathis]

I appreciate the suggestions and agree that the thief needs to feel more special. Just not sure yet how to do it.

Don't we all need to feel more special?

If DCC's backstab makes the Thief jump through the same hoops as AD&D, I'm hoping that critical chart is brutal. The requirement that the target be completely unaware of the Thief and caught by surprise was a double-whammy, IMO. First it made it so the Thief's sneak attack was only viable at the beginning of combat and even then only against "surprised" opponents, depending on interpretation. Second, it made it so that the Thief had to be undetected all the way up to combat range -- which often involved multiple Hide in Shadows and Move Silently rolls. One of which was bound to fail.

For me, the AD&D Thief was special for the reasons listed above. He could climb walls without a handhold. And when he moved silently, he was as quiet as a cat. The Thief's Sneak Attack was nice and all, but it was NOTHING compared to the Assassin's Death Attack. Not only was the Death Attack able to be used more than once in a (long) combat but it only required the target be unaware of the Assassin. And it was usable from 30' out too.

Thief not feeling so special there.

Not sure how to help him out. Thiefy types in Appendix N seem to get by on their Luck sometimes. Maybe being able to take one point of Luck damage to get a re-roll on something? Maybe that "something" depends on the Thief alignment. Or is rolled randomly at chargen and then the Thief gets to roll for more things to "burn" Luck on as he goes up in level?

Or maybe bringing back the old-school interpretation of the Thief skills? Hide in Shadows isn't as cool if the other guy gets to roll Spot.

Or maybe the Thief is really, really good at something? Doesn't even have to be Thiefy. Stuff like Local History, Navigating the Sewers. And he rolls d24 on those things. Maybe he grabs more specialties like this as he goes up in level too?

[jmucchiello]

unless an adventure contains challenges in which a thief can shine, the thief doesn't feel very special. Especially compared to a wizard and warrior and cleric, all of whom have fun new mechanics!

So it's exactly like old school D&D where the thief just sucked. Short of turning them into ninja, I don't see the thief being interesting.

[geordie racer]

What about working on smathis' idea for Skillburn but only let thieves use it ?

It might also be interesting to consider the possibility of SKILLburn. Which would be like Spellburn -- for the other guys. Maybe you missed your roll to outrun the Ghouls by 3. But if you took 3 points of Strength damage you could JUST BARELY get away. Only problem is your character is hella winded and may have pulled a muscle or something.

Maybe the Thief missed by 2 points on finding that trap. But he burns 2 points of Int to realize his mistake. And takes that att damage in the form of a blow to his confidence. He was that close to killing himself or someone in the party. Maybe he'll doubt himself for a couple of weeks and then get back to normal.

I could see some weirdness with the idea of Skillburn. Like a Wizard giving himself an aneurhysm attempting to decipher a scroll or something.

or, to change it a little:

- roll an Action die (whose type rise with levels) to see how many points you can add to your skill attempt roll (if you take the hit in stat) if you fail on the d20 roll.

Player: I'm trying to jump onto the neighbouring balcony, it's vital that I make it so I'll roll the Action die as well.

-roll 1d6 to see which stat is affected (whenever the Action die is rolled, a stat will be burnt)

-amount burnt by is (haven't worked this out yet !, maybe some correlation between Action Die roll and Luck ?)

It gives them an air of desperation. Grey Mouser, Cugel, Jack of Shadows all pushed their luck at times. But I suppose it depends on whether temporary loss in stats feels like a loss. 'The henchmen are being stubborn and refusing to delve any further now you've burned off your CHA.....'

Along with thiefly skills (and I agree with JRR about non-opposed rolls), backstab auto crit (on warrior crit table?), and thief crit tables being 'geared more toward subtlety (paralyze, blind, or hamstring your opponent)', surely that would be enough to differentiate them?

or, another variation:

for thiefly skills: no opposed roll, they just have to succeed
for non-thiefly skills (inc. combat and magic ?): ability to skillburn

making them a specialist who gains expertise in their craft, but also, at cost, maybe able to turn their hand to other things when in dire need.

[smathis]

What about working on smathis' idea for Skillburn but only let thieves use it ?

Was that really my idea? Wow. It's been a long time. Yay for me, if so.

roll an Action die (whose type rise with levels) to see how many points you can add to your skill attempt roll (if you take the hit in stat) if you fail on the d20 roll.

I like the idea of the Action die rising by levels for how effective a Skillburn can be.

Player: I'm trying to jump onto the neighbouring balcony, it's vital that I make it so I'll roll the Action die as well.

-roll 1d6 to see which stat is affected (whenever the Action die is rolled, a stat will be burnt)

-amount burnt by is (haven't worked this out yet !, maybe some correlation between Action Die roll and Luck ?)

It gives them an air of desperation. Grey Mouser, Cugel, Jack of Shadows all pushed their luck at times. But I suppose it depends on whether temporary loss in stats feels like a loss. 'The henchmen are being stubborn and refusing to delve any further now you've burned off your CHA.....'

I think the stat damage should just be one point per use. By vanilla rules, it takes a character a week to heal one point of stat damage. And it only takes 3-4 points before that damage gets in the way. Or maybe Skillburn has its own chart similar to Spellburn (although lacking the evil frog gods eating the Skillburner). I think I posted that before too.

It would make Skillburn something halfway between an MDA for skills and Spellburn (for skills).

Along with thiefly skills (and I agree with JRR about non-opposed rolls), backstab auto crit (on warrior crit table?), and thief crit tables being 'geared more toward subtlety (paralyze, blind, or hamstring your opponent)', surely that would be enough to differentiate them?

or, another variation:

for thiefly skills: no opposed roll, they just have to succeed
for non-thiefly skills (inc. combat and magic ?): ability to skillburn

making them a specialist who gains expertise in their craft, but also, at cost, maybe able to turn their hand to other things when in dire need.

The more I think about it, the more I'm liking the idea of the non-opposed roll for Thieves. Moreover, I'd prefer it if Thieves got to pick what it is they were specialized at -- like I mentioned earlier in the thread. So a charismatic Rogue just rolls a "bluff" to convince a person that speaks his language -- that distinction is important -- of something. Or a trapmaster rolls a "disable trap" to clear the way for the party. As long as the target of their actions is man-made, human or demi-human (and alive), the Thief just rolls on a static DC regardless of the actual DC of the check. Maybe that DC can go down over time. Or maybe the Thief picks up extra specializations. Or a combination of both.

I really like the idea that I can have a "thief" who is a backstabbing, ninja guy and another who is a loremastering, trap disarmer in the same party. The first one is good at sneaking around and stabbing people. The other is good at knowing stuff that needs to be known, reading stuff that no one else can read and keeping the party safe. Maybe at that point "backstab" becomes a "skill" -- however those are defined in DCC?

[Hamakto]

I really like the idea that I can have a "thief" who is a backstabbing, ninja guy and another who is a loremastering, trap disarmer in the same party. The first one is good at sneaking around and stabbing people. The other is good at knowing stuff that needs to be known, reading stuff that no one else can read and keeping the party safe. Maybe at that point "backstab" becomes a "skill" -- however those are defined in DCC?

As far as I know there are no real defined skills in DCC.

But after reading your post, I had the outline of an idea. Bear with me as it is very rough and I am not sure it would work.

Since a thief gains a set of skills based on their alignment and/or background (I think mostly alignment). Would it be worth having skill charts that would be similar to spell charts? Please note that these are VERY rough examples... so do not be too harsh.

Stealth Chart Example
--- special note: Some creatures are exceptionally perceptive --- subtract a creatures HD from the stealth check to see how perceptive they are.

1 - Critical skill failure
2-11 - If this is a moonless night in the woods, you successfully hide.
12-14 - You can only hide in deep shadows or behind cover larger than your character
15-17 - You can only hide in medium shadows and behind cover the same size as your character
18-20 - You can only hide in medium shadows or behind cover the same size as your character
21-23 - You can only hide in medium shadows
24-26 - You can only hide in light shadows and behind cover the same size as your character
27-29 - You can only hide in light shadows or behind cover at least half the size as your character
30-32 - You can only hide in light shadows
33+ - Shadows? Who needs freaking shadows?

Pick Lock Example

1 - Critical skill failure
2-11 - Should go back to school and stay awake this time.
12-14 - You successfully pick a level 1 locks in 3 rounds
15-17 - You successfully pick a level 2 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
18-20 - You successfully pick a level 3 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
21-23 - You successfully pick a level 4 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
24-26 - You successfully pick a level 5 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
27-29 - You successfully pick a level 6 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
30-32 - You successfully pick a level 7 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
33+ - You successfully pick a level 8 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round

[smathis]

Bear with me as it is very rough and I am not sure it would work.

I should make that my sig. It applies to so many of my posts.

Since a thief gains a set of skills based on their alignment and/or background (I think mostly alignment). Would it be worth having skill charts that would be similar to spell charts? Please note that these are VERY rough examples... so do not be too harsh.

Not harsh at all. Something like that would be way cool. It effectively gives Thieves "exploits" to use a 4e term.

[smathis]

And, just to clarify, I'm not strongly advocating for one approach or the other. I think all the suggestions here are good: skillburn, specialties, thief skill charts, etc. And they may not be exclusive. Maybe specialties get reflected in the thief skill charts (or there's a catch-all chart for things that fall outside the normal array of thief skills). Maybe skillburn can be stretched out over a greater number of levels if it has skill charts/specialties to work with...

Thief Level... Specialties... Specialty chart die... Skillburn bonus die...
1 3 d20 1d3
2 4* d20 1d4*
3 4 d24* 1d4
4 4 d24 1d6*
5 5* d24 1d6
6 5 d30* 1d6
7 5 d30 2d4*
8 6* d30 2d4


So a Thief can start out with Streetwise, Hide in Shadows/Move Silently and Backstab. Then at 2nd level, maybe he takes Trapmaster (Find/Disable Traps). At 5th level, he takes Arcane Dabbler (which allows him to try to cast from scrolls and read magical texts). Then at 6th level he takes Loremaster.

Another Thief, even in the same party, could take Tracking, Wilderness Survival and Favored Enemy (which maybe works a bit like Backstab only against one opponent and not needing sneaking around, so a character could "backstab" a favored enemy every so often). then at 2nd level, he takes Climb Sheer Surfaces. Then at 5th level, he takes another Favored Enemy type. Then at 6th level, he takes Animal Training.

One class. But the second character fills more of the "ranger" role. And this could be done with just a few charts for really specific abilities... like maybe Climb, Disabling Traps, Hiding/Sneaking and then a general one like Andy's Open Locks chart.

And you could have Thieves represent more of a specialist role in the game. Not necessarily the guy that disables traps and backstabs people -- although the Thief could certainly still fill those shoes.

(Thinking about it... Even if Joseph didn't want to go down the path of more charts just for Thieves. The idea of Specialties and a Specialty die is still relevant. Maybe it represents an extra die the Thief gets to roll on those skills, then the Thief takes the best result? Skillburn, course, would apply to any skill roll, attack or save. I'd even say it's cool to apply it to a roll on the critical chart. It's not a freebie. There's definitely a cost associated with it. Just some ideas. I hope someone finds them useful.)

[Stainless]

I appreciate the suggestions and agree that the thief needs to feel more special. Just not sure yet how to do it.

I have no mechanics details to suggest, but when I think "thief", I think;

Backstab
Garrote
Sap
Throw knife

Move silently
Shadow
Evade
Listen
Limited night vision

Climb
Tumbling
Tight-rope

Pick locks
Pick pockets
Disarm traps
Slight of hand

Carouse
Solve puzzles
Impersonate

If these categories can be met by the thief character class either as unique abilities or with extra proficiency, then I think someone playing the character will be thinking "thief" also.

[Hamakto]

Stealth Chart Example
--- special note: Some creatures are exceptionally perceptive --- subtract a creatures HD from the stealth check to see how perceptive they are.

1 - Critical skill failure
2-11 - If this is a moonless night in the woods, you successfully hide.
12-14 - You can only hide in deep shadows or behind cover larger than your character
15-17 - You can only hide in medium shadows and behind cover the same size as your character
18-20 - You can only hide in medium shadows or behind cover the same size as your character
21-23 - You can only hide in medium shadows
24-26 - You can only hide in light shadows and behind cover the same size as your character
27-29 - You can only hide in light shadows or behind cover at least half the size as your character
30-32 - You can only hide in light shadows
33+ - Shadows? Who needs freaking shadows?

Pick Lock Example

1 - Critical skill failure
2-11 - Should go back to school and stay awake this time.
12-14 - You successfully pick a level 1 locks in 3 rounds
15-17 - You successfully pick a level 2 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
18-20 - You successfully pick a level 3 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
21-23 - You successfully pick a level 4 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
24-26 - You successfully pick a level 5 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
27-29 - You successfully pick a level 6 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
30-32 - You successfully pick a level 7 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round
33+ - You successfully pick a level 8 locks in 3 rounds or take a cumulative 1 round off of a lower result, minimum of one round

I forgot to add one thing to this...

Non-Thief classes are restricted to a maximum result of 20+character level... or maybe just a 20.

[jmucchiello]

Non-Thief classes are restricted to a maximum result of 20+character level... or maybe just a 20.

+10

[geordie racer]

The main reason I like Skillburn is that it promotes daring, the feature most common to the Appendix N thieves.