Goodman Games

From another thread we are wondering what there is room for in the rulebook so I'm curious with the DCC RPG waste space "What is a RPG?" "How to use dice?" "What does the DM do?" "What is a 'Dungeon'?"

We all know this stuff. And DCC RPG is not really going to be picked up by someone completely unfamiliar with TTRPGs. Are these sections necessary? I suppose the dice section is necessary only because of the inclusion of gamescience dice. But Monopoly does not tell you what a board game is, does a RPG have to tell you what role-playing is?

jmucchiello wrote:"How to use dice?"
...
We all know this stuff.

I also thought this. Then, I read HackMaster's chapter about dice. I'm now enlightened.

I don't know about whether we need that or not, but we absolutely need at least a page or two of an example of play. Preferably one where everybody dies...

Ravenheart87 wrote:

jmucchiello wrote:"How to use dice?"
...
We all know this stuff.

I also thought this. Then, I read HackMaster's chapter about dice. I'm now enlightened.

Meh, I could have really done without the 10 or so pages on dice in HMB.

I don't know...
It is so much a part of what is expected for RPGs that I might miss it if it weren't there.


This does beg the question: How newbie friendly is DCC RPG going to be?

Not including the "How to roleplay" section gives a definite newbie-unfriendly sort of vibe.

I believe that Joseph's plan is to assume that the gamer is familiar with the play of role playing games and not a novice. My understanding is that there will be minimal "what is a game" content.

Ditch it, 99% of people who would look to buy it are already gamers, hell maybe even more. There other intro games.

finarvyn wrote:I believe that Joseph's plan is to assume that the gamer is familiar with the play of role playing games and not a novice. My understanding is that there will be minimal "what is a game" content.

I know that is his target, but also part of the goal has to be bringing new people into the game. I know we all do not want to carry around a 5,000 page book with everything in it. But we need to look a bit beyond the archaic days of the 70's and 80's. We need to blend the requirements (and limitations) of the printed copies of the rulebooks with the digital advantages of the Internet.

What I am saying is the following...

Joseph could devote a column or two about RPing to set a very basic tone in the rule book. It does not have to be 4-5 pages. But at the bottom of that section is a paragraph that points to a website that can devote additional information for people. The information is important to help everyone truly understand what is going on, but it is tough to justify given the space requirements in the book.

This can even be expanded out to spells. Instead of wasting one page per spell in the book, you use smaller print to get more in the book and have a downloadable link for spells off the website. It makes it much easier for people to craft their own spell books if playing wizards and clerics. But you still have the ability to fall back on the smaller print that is in the core book. It also provides an environment that can be used to keep expanding the core concepts (additional detail) without adding pages to the book.

Stuff like 'Designers corner' where there is an explanation on why things are the way they are from a rule or design angle.

Yes it would require the establishment of a 'digital front for the game', but that could go a long way towards making the RPG more viable.

Hamakto wrote:This can even be expanded out to spells. Instead of wasting one page per spell in the book, you use smaller print to get more in the book and have a downloadable link for spells off the website.

Smaller print makes rulebooks harder to consult in play (Swords & Wizardry Complete anyone ?). I don't need MORE in the book, I just need enough so I can play the game.

Hamakto wrote:It also provides an environment that can be used to keep expanding the core concepts (additional detail) without adding pages to the book.

I'm vehemently against having an expanding Core, it goes against what I read as the design concepts for the game. Core should be the benchmark for play, I don't want it changing so I never know what rules I'm playing when I go to a tournament. Also, you buy the book to buy the game - having to keep checking for updates is a bit much.

I wouldn't want the goalposts to shift now I've pre-ordered the game!

I actually do think there's a online place for Q&A and FAQ instead of having tutorials in the book (a sub-forum here ?) - because it's a waste of space once you've read the tutorial and got what it's about. A page at most in the Core rules should be more than enough.

geordie racer wrote:

Hamakto wrote:you use smaller print to get more in the book

Smaller print makes rulebooks harder to consult in play

I have to comment on this -- I think that game companies need to be more careful about smaller font sizes just to conserve space. I'm not correctable to 20-20 vision and find small font sizes very frustrating. I've not bought books (paperbacks, gamimng books, whatever) because when I opened them up I found I could not comfortably read them. I'm not saying that we need size-16 font "EZ Read" rulebooks, but hopefully we can keep font sizes decent enough for those of us with vision issues.

geordie racer wrote: I'm vehemently against having an expanding Core, it goes against what I read as the design concepts for the game. Core should be the benchmark for play, I don't want it changing so I never know what rules I'm playing when I go to a tournament. Also, you buy the book to buy the game - having to keep checking for updates is a bit much.

I wouldn't want the goalposts to shift now I've pre-ordered the game!

My idea did not come out properly. I know there have been tons of discussion on the forums on what should be core and/or what should not be in the core book. My intention was not to expand out the core book online (even if that is the way it came out). But to provide additional resources to what IS in the core book.

'What is a RPG?' is a great example of what I feel can be expanded in more detail via a web presence. A short explanation would be a must (in my opinion) in the core book, but a more lengthly description with tons of examples could be online.

Right now, the spell descriptions in the demo (to save space) have a large number of 'see above description --- Plus this effect'. (i.e. for a sleep spell: as above but targets sleep for 1d4 days). In the 'core rule book' they could save space by leaving it that way, but in the online resources have the tables fully fleshed out as space is not a premium.

This could expand out to many other areas in the rule book that are minimized for space reasons. Additional clarification or examples could be online,

This is only a brainstorm at this point. But there needs to be a balance between information, statistics and depth of detail. If the book becomes too crunchy, then additional information would be online to help fill in the blanks for those that have not been playing for 20-30 years.

That all makes good sense to me

Hamakto wrote:'What is a RPG?' is a great example of what I feel can be expanded in more detail via a web presence. A short explanation would be a must (in my opinion) in the core book, but a more lengthly description with tons of examples could be online.

I'd prefer an RPG were I occasionally read page 1 and find its contents important for play.

I'm about to say something that I'm sure will be quoted (and misquoted) out of context for some time, but it should be said. So here goes:

DCC RPG is aimed at experienced gamers, with no specific attempt to broaden the RPG audience. I certainly have no objections to new players joining, but my belief is that most of the new gamers exposed to DCC RPG will be children who are taught the game by their thirtysomething parents who buy DCC RPG. The book starts out with a declaration regarding the target audience (trust me...when you read it, you know whether this book is aimed at "you" or not). If you make it past that first declaration, you won't need any instruction on how to play an RPG or roll dice!

goodmangames wrote:DCC RPG is aimed at experienced gamers, with no specific attempt to broaden the RPG audience. I certainly have no objections to new players joining, but my belief is that most of the new gamers exposed to DCC RPG will be children who are taught the game by their thirtysomething parents who buy DCC RPG. The book starts out with a declaration regarding the target audience (trust me...when you read it, you know whether this book is aimed at "you" or not). If you make it past that first declaration, you won't need any instruction on how to play an RPG or roll dice!

First sentence in the rulebook:
"This game's target audience are experienced grognards, old-school veterans, metalheads, etc. If you're a beginner, try first something easier, like new editions of Dungeons & Dragons. Once you have grown balls, beard, hairy chest (or if you're one of the few amazons of gaming, breast), and you're not afraid to search for traps instead of rolling, make up your own stunts in combat instead of watching cards, loosing several PCs in an adventure, save or die effects, and you're getting bored of spending hours with combat ingmae and "building" your character between games - well, welcome aboard! You're in good hands now."

goodmangames wrote:I'm about to say something that I'm sure will be quoted (and misquoted) out of context for some time, but it should be said. So here goes:

DCC RPG is aimed at experienced gamers, with no specific attempt to broaden the RPG audience. I certainly have no objections to new players joining, but my belief is that most of the new gamers exposed to DCC RPG will be children who are taught the game by their thirtysomething parents who buy DCC RPG. The book starts out with a declaration regarding the target audience (trust me...when you read it, you know whether this book is aimed at "you" or not). If you make it past that first declaration, you won't need any instruction on how to play an RPG or roll dice!

First one in?! I don't believe it.

Here's the first misquote.

NEPOTISM!!! DCC supports NEPOTISM in gaming!!!

In seriousness, your point makes perfect sense to me. But I couldn't resist being the first to misquote you.

Happy with that idea and makes sense to me.

Does aiming a book at someone require a MDoA? Or is it simply an improvised weapon?


...why is everyone taking up improvised weapons all of a sudden..?

goodmangames wrote:I'm about to say something that I'm sure will be quoted (and misquoted) out of context for some time, but it should be said. So here goes:

DCC RPG is aimed … to broaden the RPG audience. I certainly have … objections to … children who ... buy DCC RPG. The book … is aimed at "you"…. If you make it past that first declaration, you won't need … dice!

Hey, Joseph! Is this taking your quote out of context enough? I tried hard to misquote you as best as I could on such short notice!

finarvyn wrote:

goodmangames wrote:I'm about to say something that I'm sure will be quoted (and misquoted) out of context for some time, but it should be said. So here goes:

DCC RPG is aimed … to broaden the RPG audience. I certainly have … objections to … children who ... buy DCC RPG. The book … is aimed at "you"…. If you make it past that first declaration, you won't need … dice!

Hey, Joseph! Is this taking your quote out of context enough? I tried hard to misquote you as best as I could on such short notice!

DCC is going to be diceless?! I'm out!

finarvyn wrote:

goodmangames wrote:I'm about to say something that I'm sure will be quoted (and misquoted) out of context for some time, but it should be said. So here goes:

DCC RPG is aimed … to broaden the RPG audience. I certainly have … objections to … children who ... buy DCC RPG. The book … is aimed at "you"…. If you make it past that first declaration, you won't need … dice!

Hey, Joseph! Is this taking your quote out of context enough? I tried hard to misquote you as best as I could on such short notice!

Lol. Awesome. We are so going freakin' diceless.

//H

I just knew I could start trouble, and I didn't have to re-arrange the order of a single word! Now that word will trickle out about Diceless DCC RPG there will be mass mutiny. (I, of course, will still be around because I enjoy Amber Diceless. But you can't use Amber Dicless to run a dungeon crawl, sadly. I've tried. We'd have to remove "DC" from "DCC" without the dungeon crawl. )

What's this new diceless game called "Classics" that I keep hearing about...? Is it like a quickstart of the DCC RPG?

Argh!! I set myself up for this!!

But it shall be noted that the diceless mechanics require Zocchi non-dice.

goodmangames wrote:DCC RPG is aimed at experienced gamers, with no specific attempt to broaden the RPG audience. I certainly have no objections to new players joining, but my belief is that most of the new gamers exposed to DCC RPG will be children who are taught the game by their thirtysomething parents who buy DCC RPG. The book starts out with a declaration regarding the target audience (trust me...when you read it, you know whether this book is aimed at "you" or not). If you make it past that first declaration, you won't need any instruction on how to play an RPG or roll dice!