questions about combat

[mshensley]

I'm too lazy to sift through all the threads anymore and my questions may not have been answered yet anyway, so here goes-

In the combat system of the dcc rpg:

A. Will you always have a chance of killing/dying with one shot? Will a 10th level fighter still have to be careful when facing a 0 level town guard with a crossbow?

B. Critical Hits - will these provide a chance to lose ears, eyes, fingers, hands, noses and toses... err... toes?

[Harley Stroh]

A. Monster/npc crits scale, so no, the fighter shouldn't worry too much. While there is always *some* risk that Harold the II is going to catch an arrow in the eye from some peon, it won't figure prominently.

B. Yes. Not a lot of toe loss, if I recall correctly, but prominent appendages do take a beating.

//H

[mshensley]

A. Monster/npc crits scale, so no, the fighter shouldn't worry too much. While there is always *some* risk that Harold the II is going to catch an arrow in the eye from some peon, it won't figure prominently.

B. Yes. Not a lot of toe loss, if I recall correctly, but prominent appendages do take a beating.

//H

A. I'm ok with that as long as there's always a small chance of instant death.

B. Good. I've always been a fan of the crits in wfrp and it happens fairly often in the fiction I read. Don't forget to have a list of prosthetic devices to buy in the equipment lists.

[Black Dougal]

A. I'm ok with that as long as there's always a small chance of instant death.

Small is obviously a relative term here.

[mshensley]

Small is obviously a relative term here.

small > none

One thing that has always bothered me about D&D is that once you have a few levels under your belt you become to immune to dying in many situations. Also, due to the binary nature of hit points (i'm fine or i'm dead), if there's no immediate danger of dying then there's really no danger at all. It's the old story of the high level adventurer scoffing at the town guard who has a drop on him with a leveled crossbow. The pc knows there's no way for him to die from piddly damage and so isn't afraid in the least. This is the kind of thing that kills immersion.

[Harley Stroh]

B. Good. I've always been a fan of the crits in wfrp and it happens fairly often in the fiction I read. Don't forget to have a list of prosthetic devices to buy in the equipment lists.

Excellent point. I need to look into what was done historically.

//H

[mshensley]

Excellent point. I need to look into what was done historically.

//H

peg legs and hooks were always in style

[Machpants]

Small is obviously a relative term here.

small > none

One thing that has always bothered me about D&D is that once you have a few levels under your belt you become to immune to dying in many situations. Also, due to the binary nature of hit points (i'm fine or i'm dead), if there's no immediate danger of dying then there's really no danger at all. It's the old story of the high level adventurer scoffing at the town guard who has a drop on him with a leveled crossbow. The pc knows there's no way for him to die from piddly damage and so isn't afraid in the least. This is the kind of thing that kills immersion.

Fantasy Craft sorts this easily. It is called a 'terminal situation'. A DM call in such situations as having a knife held to ones throat, said crossbow to the head, being asleep or falling 100metres. If you fall whatever chek the DM calls or the enemy makes his, you are dead. easy and simple. A house rule I add to all my stacking HP games.

[GnomeBoy]

Small is obviously a relative term here.

small > none

One thing that has always bothered me about D&D is that once you have a few levels under your belt you become to immune to dying in many situations. Also, due to the binary nature of hit points (i'm fine or i'm dead), if there's no immediate danger of dying then there's really no danger at all. It's the old story of the high level adventurer scoffing at the town guard who has a drop on him with a leveled crossbow. The pc knows there's no way for him to die from piddly damage and so isn't afraid in the least. This is the kind of thing that kills immersion.

Fantasy Craft sorts this easily. It is called a 'terminal situation'. A DM call in such situations as having a knife held to ones throat, said crossbow to the head, being asleep or falling 100metres. If you fall whatever chek the DM calls or the enemy makes his, you are dead. easy and simple. A house rule I add to all my stacking HP games.

There's also the Helpless Defenders rule (PHB 3.5 pg 153), which covers anybody 'otherwise at your mercy'. The only niggle is that to apply for ranged weapons you must be adjacent -- and yet, as DM, I wave my hand and *voila* that dude you have the drop on with your leveled crossbow is, as they say, a Helpless Defender. If the players are happy with that hand-waving working both ways, it opens up possibilities of the sort you describe...

[smathis]

One thing that has always bothered me about D&D is that once you have a few levels under your belt you become to immune to dying in many situations. Also, due to the binary nature of hit points (i'm fine or i'm dead), if there's no immediate danger of dying then there's really no danger at all. It's the old story of the high level adventurer scoffing at the town guard who has a drop on him with a leveled crossbow. The pc knows there's no way for him to die from piddly damage and so isn't afraid in the least. This is the kind of thing that kills immersion.

This is why I like lowering the Massive Damage Threshold. Also solves the falling damage issue.

[mshensley]

This is why I like lowering the Massive Damage Threshold. Also solves the falling damage issue.

Falling damage is definitely one of my pet peeves. Falling should be handled something like lava. Anything over 30ft should be instant death.

[mshensley]

There's also the Helpless Defenders rule (PHB 3.5 pg 153), which covers anybody 'otherwise at your mercy'. The only niggle is that to apply for ranged weapons you must be adjacent -- and yet, as DM, I wave my hand and *voila* that dude you have the drop on with your leveled crossbow is, as they say, a Helpless Defender. If the players are happy with that hand-waving working both ways, it opens up possibilities of the sort you describe...

Yeah, I've always thought that most combat systems and especially D&D's fail to work outside of a fair fight - one on one with both combatants ready. Outside of those situations, combat works best as part of the narrative. The gm should either just tell you that you sneak up and cut their throat or they hear you and normal combat ensues.

[SgtPepper76]

Falling damage is definitely one of my pet peeves. Falling should be handled something like lava. Anything over 30ft should be instant death.

I dunno, every now and then the DM can roll 1's on all of the fall damage dice...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulovi%C4%87

sidenote: Looks like she no longer has the falling distance record based on new evidence but still, one heck of a fall.

[smathis]

Falling damage is definitely one of my pet peeves. Falling should be handled something like lava. Anything over 30ft should be instant death.

Mine too. If the "intended" falling damage mechanic is used and MDT is set to something less than the insane 50 hit points it is in 3.5, I think there's an answer there.

So a 30' fall would be 6d6 damage. 1d6 + 2d6 + 3d6. And if MDT were set to CON or 10 + 2 x level, then there's a good chance a 30' fall would kill someone outright. I generally don't allow NPCs a Massive Damage save so they die whenever that threshold is reached -- unless they're undead or some uber-villain deserving a save.

But, then again, I'm rough on my NPCs. They don't even get to roll a save in Save-or-die situations. They just die. That makes the PCs seem heroic by comparison. And it saves me having to roll or even worry about an NPC's save bonuses. NPCs just never make a save. Poor fellas.

It also makes the game seem a lot grittier without penalizing the PCs. When they see two of their retainers get skewered, you'd be surprised how lethal the game feels for them. Now, I may still roll a d20. Even with the understanding that NPCs always fail saves. And I may fudge on that rule if the roll comes up a 20.

But the grittiness and lethality of a game can be enhanced in this way without ever getting close to a PC.

Yeah, I've always thought that most combat systems and especially D&D's fail to work outside of a fair fight - one on one with both combatants ready. Outside of those situations, combat works best as part of the narrative. The gm should either just tell you that you sneak up and cut their throat or they hear you and normal combat ensues.

And for these sorts of attacks, I'd have an immediate Massive Damage check result. The PC will either be dropped to zero or will lose however many hit points their MDT is set at. Note this would most likely still be fatal to a PC with less than 12 hit points. So a consideration is whether to have an MDT roll when MDT is higher than hit points, or just drop the PC to zero and start the Death Saves (or march to -10, depending on how one rolls).

[mntnjeff]

I like the idea of the "Helpless Defender" rule, and I think it scales well with level. As you get to be higher level there are those things which are just instinctual w/in you, mirrored in the increasing save mechanic. In other words, a 1st level fighter that gets that bolt to the chest from the town guardsman, probably doesn't know to angle his body just so in order to mitigate the damage. Where a 6th level fighter might get a crossbow to the throat from a guard hidden in deep shadow 10' away...but yet still have that split second reaction instinct so ingrained into him that he turns his neck just so in order to survive the otherwise deadly attack. (A successful save)

Falling though, or getting crushed by a wall, or boulder, or immersed in lava, or consumed in flame, etc. Yeah...the hit point model fails in this case.

It ought to work a bit more like the drowning rules. You've got either 'X' amount of time to save yourself, or you just die. This has the potential of working well in those lava, fire, etc. situations.

Hit Points can't save you in a 50' fall. Unless there's some sort of mitigating circumstance. A root you grab on your way past, a marshy section you fall into, etc. Heck, we've all heard of the errant sky diver who's chute didn't open, who ended up living. Crazy stuff happens.

But at the end of the day, I don't want to account for the corner cases w/ extreme rule bloat. I want something simple, elegant and streamlined that I can easily narrate to everyone's content. (Except of course for the dude who's PC just got eggshelled in a 50' fall.)

So two rules come to mind:
1. Helpless Defender
2. Massive Damage (Set the parameters as a house rule)

I think adding a wrinkle to the "Drowning Rule" would work for those other situations mentioned above.

[mntnjeff]

LOL! Looks like 3 of us had basically the same idea at the same time. Great minds and all that I suppose eh?

[JRR]

This is why I like lowering the Massive Damage Threshold. Also solves the falling damage issue.

Falling damage is definitely one of my pet peeves. Falling should be handled something like lava. Anything over 30ft should be instant death.

A friend of my dad's would disagree. He was a paratrooper in WW2. His chute failed to open and he plummeted thousands of feet. Got up and walked 5 miles to the nearest town and spent the next 6 months in the hospital with a broken back. He's in his 80s now and last I heard he was doing fine.

[smathis]

LOL! Looks like 3 of us had basically the same idea at the same time. Great minds and all that I suppose eh?

[mshensley]

A friend of my dad's would disagree. He was a paratrooper in WW2. His chute failed to open and he plummeted thousands of feet. Got up and walked 5 miles to the nearest town and spent the next 6 months in the hospital with a broken back. He's in his 80s now and last I heard he was doing fine.

Not playable for six months = dead IMO. The problem with D&D is that a high level character can survive such a fall and then go about his day like nothing happened. The overwhelming majority of people that fall 30 or more feet end up dead.

[smathis]

Not playable for six months = dead IMO. The problem with D&D is that a high level character can survive such a fall and then go about his day like nothing happened. The overwhelming majority of people that fall 30 or more feet end up dead.

Well, JRR's friend's dad probably took enough "damage" to go to zero hit points and then rolled well on a Death Save. If he'd rolled a '20', then he'd be up and walking around...

Re: that high level character thing. I once had a DM with a bone to pick who'd decided that, dadgummit, he was going to have a TPK. So he wrangled the party into a cavern and then had us fight an Ancient Dragon in close quarters. The Dragon's breath weapon killed half the party in the first round. By the end of the third round, I was the only party member left standing. A measly Barbarian with 50 hit points.

Rather than join my pals in the Great Hereafter, I ran out of the cave. Thinking I'd be safer outside. But, like I said, DM had a bone to pick. So he ruled the Dragon could get out of the cave and pursue me. Okay. Whatever. Previously, we'd climbed up an 80' cliff to get to this cave. So I did the math... What's the average result of 8d6? What's the max? Mkay. So I knew I couldn't die.

So I jumped off the cliff.

That's the sort of the thing the 1d6 per 10' falling rules encourage. On the dragonsfoot and odd74 forums, they say that rule was a mistype. They say the rule was actually supposed to have the falling damage compound over and over. So 20' would be 1d6 + 2d6. And 50' would be 1d6 + 2d6 +3d6 + 4d6 + 5d6. That makes more sense to me. But I don't know how reliable those accounts are.

[Geoffrey]

On the dragonsfoot and odd74 forums, they say that rule was a mistype. They say the rule was actually supposed to have the falling damage compound over and over. So 20' would be 1d6 + 2d6. And 50' would be 1d6 + 2d6 +3d6 + 4d6 + 5d6. That makes more sense to me. But I don't know how reliable those accounts are.

That's the gospel truth, straight from Gary Gygax himself. In his "From the Sorcerer's Scroll" column in Dragon magazine #69 (Jan. 1983), Gary wrote: "The correct procedure for determining falling damage in the AD&D game system is to roll 1d6 per 10’ fallen, cumulative. Since a falling body accelerates quickly, the damage mounts geometrically: 2d6 for the second 10 feet fallen, 3d6 for the third 10 feet, etc. The maximum of 20d6 is therefore reached after a fall of approximately 60 feet for most characters."

Frank Mentzer expanded on that on p. 13 of Dragon magazine #70 (Feb. 1983):

'Gary has always used a geometrically increasing system for falling damage in AD&D games; the trouble arose because that system simply never made it into the rule books.

'When the AD&D Players Handbook was being assembled, a brief section on falling damage was included: a mere 7½ lines that offers more advice on broken bones and sprains than on falling damage. As we now understand the event, the section was not included in the first draft, and the editors requested a brief insert on this frequently referred-to topic. So Gary hastily wrote a sentence describing damage as “1d6 per 10’ for each 10’ fallen.” Someone removed the “per 10’” as being (so it was thought) redundant, and off we went. That section was later quoted in passing in the Aerial Adventures section of the Dungeon Masters Guide, thereby becoming further entrenched in our game procedures.'

[Geoffrey]

I myself use Gary's falling damage system first mentioned in Dragon #69, as follows:

If you fall 10', you take 1d6 damage (an average of 3.5 hp damage).
If you fall 20', you take 3d6 damage (an average of 10.5 hp damage).
If you fall 30', you take 6d6 damage (an average of 21 hp damage).
If you fall 40', you take 10d6 damage (an average of 35 hp damage).
If you fall 50', you take 15d6 damage (an average of 52.5 hp damage).
If you fall 60' or more, you take 20d6 damage (an average of 70 hp damage).

[geordie racer]

I use 10' roll 1d10, 20' roll 2d10 etc, over 50' = dead but I allow the pious who call on their god or demon patron a Level x 10% chance of divine intervention to save them. Mind, I haven't ever told the players about that.

[smathis]

I myself use Gary's falling damage system first mentioned in Dragon #69, as follows:

If you fall 10', you take 1d6 damage (an average of 3.5 hp damage).
If you fall 20', you take 3d6 damage (an average of 10.5 hp damage).
If you fall 30', you take 6d6 damage (an average of 21 hp damage).
If you fall 40', you take 10d6 damage (an average of 35 hp damage).
If you fall 50', you take 15d6 damage (an average of 52.5 hp damage).
If you fall 60' or more, you take 20d6 damage (an average of 70 hp damage).

I'm glad that system has true, blue officialdom to it. I like it a LOT better than the 1d6 per 10'. Thanks for hunting that down, Geoffrey.

[JRR]

Not playable for six months = dead IMO. The problem with D&D is that a high level character can survive such a fall and then go about his day like nothing happened. The overwhelming majority of people that fall 30 or more feet end up dead.

Well, he also didn't have clerical magic at his disposal.

I should add that I use the 1d6 +2d6, etc system in my games. Even so, a 30 foot fall is unlikely to be fatal, barring a head injury. Other than massive trauma to the head, most people who fall from a height die because they sever the aorta which carries blood out of the heart. I fell about 30 feet once, landed on a scree slope and slid about 20 more feet. The slide absorbed most of the momentum, and I ended up with a lot of scratches and bruises. Not every fall is a splat against solid rock, thus the variable damage of the dice imo. It's a lot of fun narrating the results AFTER seeing the results of the dice roll. The dice came up all sixes? You fall onto solid concrete. The dice came up mostly ones? You fell into a bush, a river, onto a scree slope, onto a giant frog, etc.

I could also see any fall over 30 feet having a save or die effect. No additional damage dice are added after 30 feet (1d6+2d6+3d6) At 40 feet you take max damage and must save or die. Each additional 10 feet adds a cumulutive minus one to the save.