So, what about combat?

[Ogrepuppy]

It occurred to me that, with all the fuss over the magic system, I don't recall seeing/reading much about the combat system.

I know it's been stripped down (AoOs have been dropped, ferex)...what's left?

Joseph or Harley, any chance you fine gents could elucidate just a bit on the topic?

[goodmangames]

It's very, very fast. When I first started playing D&D with my brother and the neighborhood kids, we had super-fast combats. Roll attack, roll damage, next! I remember my first 3E games and thinking, "Wow, this goes a lot slower." Then 4E came along and you'd literally finish 1, maybe 2 combats in a session, and players would be surfing the web while they wait for their compatriots to finish their turns. Personally I prefer something that keeps everyone engaged pretty constantly. So the goal of DCC RPG combat is to never have "the other players" sit idle for long - everyone gets a turn roughly every minute or two. So basically it just goes really fast. Very little complexity...you roll to attack, something special generally happens on a 1 or 20, otherwise you then resolve damage and move on. There are rules for withdrawal (if you retreat, the other guy gets a free whack), basic "special maneuvers" (disarm, grapple, etc.), etc. but for the most part it's all simple attack rolls or opposed rolls for fast resolution.

The most exciting element of combat for me is that most games I run involve multiple completed encounters in a 4-hour session. Most entire combats get resolved in 10-15 minutes or so, tops. There's lots of time to do combats, and still have traps and puzzles and NPCs and exploration in between.

[joela]

Very little complexity...you roll to attack, something special generally happens on a 1 or 20,

Details! I'm assuming there are critical failure and success charts, with the latter progressively becoming more lethal as the PC or the monster is a higher level/HD.

[GnomeBoy]

Most entire combats get resolved in 10-15 minutes or so, tops.

...And I think you've said you're running six or more people through a play test at one time. Does the 10-15 minute time frame apply to that many people, presumably with multiple opponents?

[goodmangames]

Yes, most of my games have been in the 4-8 player range. It generally goes pretty fast, even with multiple opponents.

Rolls of 1 are followed by fumbles (if they're a combat roll) or corruption (if they're a spell check roll). Both Harley and I have had PCs killed by critical fumbles. Always fun. Also why I encourage every player to have at least two PCs in play at all times.

Rolls of 20 are crits (if they're a combat roll) or maximum results (if they're a spell check roll). There are multiple crit tables, associated with character class and level. Your class/level dictates which table you roll on. Additionally, your level gives you a crit die. A warrior, for example, starts out rolling 1d12 on the crit table at level 1 and is rolling 1d24 on the crit table by level 5, so they have the ability to get higher (and more deadly) results. Meanwhile, a level 5 wizard is still looking at a 1d10 roll, and on a weaker table as well.

Generally speaking the thief crit tables are geared more toward subtlety (paralyze, blind, or hamstring your opponent), the wizard crit tables are geared more toward, um, wimpiness (do a little extra damage), and the warrior and cleric crit tables are geared more toward awesome destruction (significant additional damage, crippling wounds, berzerker rage, additional attacks, and outright kills).

It sounds complicated, but it's not. Basically, for your class/level, you keep your crit die handy, and just roll that whenever you roll a crit. "Natural 20? Cool! Rolling my 1d12 to see what it caused."

I'm still playing with crits. For a while we had this cool-looking crit matrix -- looked like something out of a 1970's wargame, you cross-referenced this, that, and the other to get a result -- but it was too cumbersome in actual play, so it got ejected. So the final result may vary somewhat from what I'm describing here.

P.S. Monsters can crit, too. Dragons, demons, giants, and undead have their own custom tables. Dragons rip out limbs, shatter sternums, and splatter spittle laced with breath weapon. Undead tend to transmit grave rot and necrotic diseases. And so on.

[joela]

P.S. Monsters can crit, too. Dragons, demons, giants, and undead have their own custom tables. Dragons rip out limbs, shatter sternums, and splatter spittle laced with breath weapon. Undead tend to transmit grave rot and necrotic diseases. And so on.

I just had a nergasm

[Ogrepuppy]

Then 4E came along and you'd literally finish 1, maybe 2 combats in a session, and players would be surfing the web while they wait for their compatriots to finish their turns.

I'm glad to read that combat is faster...and, it seems, much simpler!

I went to the entire "Dark Sun" Encounters sessions at my LGS, and had been playing pretty regularly since Day 1 that 4th edition was released, and yes, I agree with your above assessment.

My wife actually fell asleep waiting for her turn once during 4th edition combat when we were gaming with friends. :: shakes head :: That should NEVER happen during D&D.

[Ogrepuppy]

Also why I encourage every player to have at least two PCs in play at all times.

Do you mean in the same fashion as 2nd edition AD&D's Dark Sun setting, where it was encouraged that you have a...what'd they call it?...."character tree" I think it was?

Or do you mean something else? Literally run 2 PCs at once? Feel free to elaborate!

[finarvyn]

Rolls of 1 are followed by fumbles (if they're a combat roll) or corruption (if they're a spell check roll). Both Harley and I have had PCs killed by critical fumbles.

I've killed PCs with critical fumbles, although I usually make up a table on the spot. "Um... 1 or 2 you slip and fall, 3 or 4 you break your weapon, 5 or 6 you hit a friendly ... now roll!" Just whatever happens to pop into my head at the moment. I'm looking forward to seeing your fumble tables!

Rolls of 20 are crits (if they're a combat roll) or maximum results (if they're a spell check roll). There are multiple crit tables, associated with character class and level.

I like the idea of a custom table based on level and class. I tend to go with generic "double damage" but crit tables would be awesome. (Especially if they are on the character sheet so we don't lose time trying to find 'em!)

[finarvyn]

Also why I encourage every player to have at least two PCs in play at all times.

Do you mean in the same fashion as 2nd edition AD&D's Dark Sun setting, where it was encouraged that you have a...what'd they call it?...."character tree" I think it was?

Or do you mean something else? Literally run 2 PCs at once? Feel free to elaborate!

The character tree was a real "odd duck" of a system. If I recall correctly, you ran three characters in the campaign but only one at a time. When you gained XP the non-active characters also gained fractional XP under the assumption that they were "off adventuring elsewhere" and so all of the characters would gradually get better.

I suspect that Joseph is simply having players run two characters so that when one dies they can play the other. It would be interesting to hear whether they play both early on or simply exchange one for the other when death occurs.

My bet is on the "play both" scenario.

[goodmangames]

I like the idea of a custom table based on level and class. I tend to go with generic "double damage" but crit tables would be awesome. (Especially if they are on the character sheet so we don't lose time trying to find 'em!)

Right now the crit tables are on the back of my home-made DM screen, facing the players, so they're always handy. There will be a published DM screen and keeping the crit tables there is the current plan.

[goodmangames]

I suspect that Joseph is simply having players run two characters so that when one dies they can play the other. It would be interesting to hear whether they play both early on or simply exchange one for the other when death occurs.

Yes, that's it exactly. The character construction is pretty simple so it's not too confusing to play a couple characters. I usually start players off with three 0-level characters. 1 or 2 of them survive to achieve level 1. Those guys level up, and most players in the level 1 game have 1 or 2 PCs. If somebody loses his past PC, another player "donates" his extra. The way it all shakes out is that everybody ends up with at least 1 character.

In the early days of D&D, we all rolled dice and crossed our fingers and were excited to see what D&D character we rolled up. Remember the good old days of rolling up PC after PC hoping to get an 18 in something -- anything! Even just 16+ on one stat would be cool. Then D&D evolved into what is now effectively a points-buy system, even though we don't call it that: you roll dice that are biased toward higher stats (4d6 and drop the lowest, or a fixed distribution of scores, or some other variant of that idea), you pick which stat you assign them to, your skills/feats/powers are balanced based on mathematical algorithms (which are occasionally divulged by the designers), and so on. From an evolutionary perspective D&D has gone full circle from its origin point as a balanced wargame (Chainmail and pre-Chainmail entities) to a randomized RPG (early editions) back to a balanced wargame (4E). For players who enjoy a wargame style of play, that's okay. But it results in a couple things that don't match the personal play style I prefer: players tend to play the exact same character every time (you can continually build the same specialized mage, fighter, whatever), and there's very little unpredictability in the game - it's more like a wargame, frankly.

Anyway, I'm rambling a little here, but my goal is to take a step back from that wargame vibe. From 4E to DCC RPG will be the same evolutionary step that happened from early wargames to Chainmail to D&D, back in the early 1970's. Getting back on topic, from a character creation point of view, stats are determined randomly (3d6 straight down the line), and the combination of multiple PCs and high death rates at low levels means your resulting character is ALSO determined randomly. You may start out with a blacksmith, an elf ranger, and a farmer. By the time they finish the first adventure, you're left with one or maybe two of them -- you can't predict which ones -- and that's your character, with his 3d6-down-the-line stats and battle scars from his first level 0 expedition. What class do you pick? Well, between his Luck score (which influences some element of potential class choice...more on that later) and his native abilities (high Str? high Int? etc.), there will probably be a class that seems like a natural choice. But the party must be balanced! And not every one of the party's 0-level PCs will be perfectly suited to every class. So you may end up with a character who's not optimized for his class. In fact, you probably WILL end up with a non-optimal character. And, frankly, that's a lot of fun.

I played one game where the pool of surviving 0-level characters included one PC who was the obvious choice for party wizard, since he was the only one with a double-digit Int. So he became the wizard. But he also had the highest Strength in the party, and it was higher than his Int! How often do you get a wizard with a higher Str score than his Int? It was fun - it was like Conan the Wizard - and it was the kind of character build you NEVER get in modern D&D games.

And I had another game where a player had two really great 0-level characters -- several double-digit stats, generally looked like they had great prospects -- but throughout the game, it was his third, absolutely terrible character, the one with multiple single-digit stats and a "3" in something (I forget which stat it was, but the fact that he even had a 3 made this player write him off from the beginning) -- well, the absolutely terrible PC was the one who consistently excelled in the game. Great rolls, great luck, he pulled off a couple awesome moves that saved the party...and by the time it came to level up, that player was more attached to the "terrible character" than the better ones. Again, something you never see in modern D&D games.

So, to answer your question in a roundabout way, I encourage players to start with a couple 0-level PCs, then there's kind of a natural "funnel" that results in each player having their own primary PC after a couple games, and that PC typically ends up with a clear identity and a fun back story.

[GnomeBoy]

I am going to agree that non-optimal characters are the most fun, and spare this forum 30 years of anecdotes...

[DCCfan]

I am going to agree that non-optimal characters are the most fun, and spare this forum 30 years of anecdotes...

You can give us at least one can't you? I know your dying to do it.

[Ogrepuppy]

I can tell you of the time I rolled 18's for every stat, no cheating, and the DM sat right next to me while I did it. The first three 18's he smirked but was impressed....the last three he sat with his jaw hitting the groud. I cheered, but also sat with my jaw hitting the ground. (They were my special "lucky six-siders". Some butt-munch stole them, likely that DM to prevent me from rolling an all-18-stat character again.)

Oh, wait, non-optimal characters....sorry.

[finarvyn]

I can tell you of the time I rolled 18's for every stat, no cheating, and the DM sat right next to me while I did it. The first three 18's he smirked but was impressed....the last three he sat with his jaw hitting the groud. I cheered, but also sat with my jaw hitting the ground.

Quite the tale. The odds of throwing 18 consecutive 6's on a d6 (or 6 straight 18's) are one in 101600 billion. My jaw would drop as well, and then I'd encourage you to play the lottery!

(They were my special "lucky six-siders". Some butt-munch stole them, likely that DM to prevent me from rolling an all-18-stat character again.)

If I was that DM I'd steal 'em as well ... then dust them off for my next character.

Actually, if I had loaded d6's that rolled 18's I'd try to match them with one non-loaded die in the hopes that I could get away with a character with all 13-18 stats. Not so obvious.

[Ogrepuppy]

The DM was right there, watched every roll. Neither of us could believe it. I'm actually not making it up.

(I suspect the lucky dice might have been just a little bit loaded. I frequently--as in, almost every time--rolled 6 on this set of dice.)

[finarvyn]

Do you know where you got those dice? Some hobby stores sell loaded dice and it's possible you had some without even knowing. I know that my sister had a die with all 3's on it and played for most of a game session before she figured it out.

I'd still go out and play the lottery as quickly as possible! Just in case.

[DCCfan]

Do you know where you got those dice? Some hobby stores sell loaded dice and it's possible you had some without even knowing. I know that my sister had a die with all 3's on it and played for most of a game session before she figured it out.

I'd still go out and play the lottery as quickly as possible! Just in case.

I purchased four green D6's once and two of them were loaded. I didn't ask for a die with all fives on it or the one with sixes and twos. I was just a 5th grader and wanted some colored dice. After everyone at the table created a better than average character we all noticed the 7/11 dice. I'm still not sure if this was a prank by the clerk or just an accident. I still have them in my dice bag and loan them to newbies just for fun.

[GnomeBoy]

I am going ... spare this forum 30 years of anecdotes...

You can give us at least one can't you? I know your dying to do it.

Well, since you seem to have the time...

The D&D example that springs to mind is Elsworth, a wizard who wasn't flawed per se, but wasn't exactly gifted in the physical attribute department. (bog-average Dex and a 7 Str, IIRC.) Still, he managed to pull off some rather surprising moves on more than one occasion. He got good at charging an opponent if near enough and taking them out with one shockingly good attack, which made the fighters wonder why they were bothering with all that armor and multitudes of weapons. A dagger seemed to do the trick. And one time we were trying to scale the wall of a fortress. The types who were supposed to do it easily were having trouble, and out of a sense of "oh, hell, let me do it!", Elsworth climbed the wall with a natural twenty and made the experts look like amateurs. The fact that he did this in what would be the equivalent of a tuxedo, and without getting dirty, just poured salt in their wound.

[JRR]

Our 3e campaign had a tpk one night, so instead of rerolling characters, which would have consumed most of the session, we grabbed my Basic D&D set and started a game. One guy opted not to play, so that left a dm and 2 players. We each rolled 2 characters. I had a mu with amazing stats. An 18 and a couple 16s, IIRC. I also had a cleric with a 14 wisdom and a bunch of 6s and a 3 charisma. We were running Homlett and the basement fight killed 3 characters. My poor cleric was the only one to live. I ended up having more fun with him than I did the mu.

[goodmangames]

Our 3e campaign had a tpk one night, so instead of rerolling characters, which would have consumed most of the session, we grabbed my Basic D&D set and started a game. One guy opted not to play, so that left a dm and 2 players. We each rolled 2 characters. I had a mu with amazing stats. An 18 and a couple 16s, IIRC. I also had a cleric with a 14 wisdom and a bunch of 6s and a 3 charisma. We were running Homlett and the basement fight killed 3 characters. My poor cleric was the only one to live. I ended up having more fun with him than I did the mu.

That's the spirit!

The story of the character with all 18's is amazing. I don't think I've ever seen someone roll up two 18's on the same character, much less six!

[Ogrepuppy]

Well, it's not a story, but...it's not that amazing when you frequently roll 6's on the same set of six-siders.

[JRR]

Hers's another. In a 2e game, I rolled a mu/cleric multiclass. I rolled a 2 and a 1 on hit point rolls. Divide that in half and you get 1.5 which rounds down to one. Paired with my low con gave me one hit point at first level. So, one hit from anything and I was dead. The dm didn't want to kill me, so he fudged every roll. I HATE that. After I figured out what he was doing, I became as reckless as Conan in a cage match vs Peewee Herman. I charged into combat more often than the fighters and survived longer, lol. It soon got old, but was a blast for a bit. After a suitable period of dm training, he became a pretty good character. Tons of spells.

[finarvyn]

I have the opposite story. I know of a mid-level character who was down to one hp, encountered a demon, charged it and died, then blamed me for killing his character.