Goodman Games

What will be the highest level of spells in this game? Ninth, or something else?

Must. Stop. Reading.

Can't. Afford. Pre-order. This. Month.

Must ... not ... make fun ... of ... GnomeBoy ... ugh ... can't resist!

GnomeBoy wrote:Must. Stop. Reading.

Can't. Afford. Pre-order. This. Month.

Oh, stop whining! Stop eating and pretty soon you'll have saved up enough for a pre-order. Then you, too, can be one of the cool kids on the block!

Your words have weight, sir. Eating is overrated anyway. Soon your words will outweigh me! And cool sounds really, um, ...cool?

finarvyn wrote:Must ... not ... make fun ... of ... GnomeBoy ... ugh ... can't resist!

GnomeBoy wrote:Must. Stop. Reading.

Can't. Afford. Pre-order. This. Month.

Oh, stop whining! Stop eating and pretty soon you'll have saved up enough for a pre-order. Then you, too, can be one of the cool kids on the block!

Sounds like it is time for the Ramen noodle and popcorn diet.

Ketchup, from ketchup packets from fast food restaurants + hot water = tomato soup!


Spellslinging sounds really cool. I like the fewer-number,-no-need-for-progressions-of-the-same-idea idea A LOT. As much as I've played D&D over the years in various forms, and as much as I enjoy playing a magic-user, I detest the magic system on many levels -- so the DCC RPG magic system is exciting to look forward to...!

GnomeBoy wrote:Must. Stop. Reading.

Can't. Afford. Pre-order. This. Month.

Tonight at 9: Local gnome dies of malnutrition while nibbling on old character record sheets.

//H

Magic sounds like Role Master Spell Lists... with more thought put into them.

I've never been a big fan of critical tables. I think that stems from the issue of, what happens to a player character that is hit by a crit (to be really crisp... I'm lucky.. I roll well quite often), and tables tend to get old... the last thing you want to do is stop and flip flip flip... that doesn't keep the fun going.

I was done with crits after a few years with Role Master, aka Skill Master.

UHF wrote:Magic sounds like Role Master Spell Lists... with more thought put into them.

I've never been a big fan of critical tables. I think that stems from the issue of, what happens to a player character that is hit by a crit (to be really crisp... I'm lucky.. I roll well quite often), and tables tend to get old... the last thing you want to do is stop and flip flip flip... that doesn't keep the fun going.

I was done with crits after a few years with Role Master, aka Skill Master.

The crit tables in DCC RPG aren't as long and detailed as those in Rolemaster...more like those in the old versions of Warhammer FRP (but not as deadly). Somewhere between "flip flip flip" and "Gee, I do double damage...AS ALWAYS."

Cool.

Harley Stroh wrote:Tonight at 9: Local gnome dies of malnutrition while nibbling on old character record sheets.

Actually, I've discovered that some dice can be very nutritious.

Calcium: it does a body good.

GnomeBoy wrote:Actually, I've discovered that some dice can be very nutritious.

Calcium: it does a body good.

Err, that's not actual bone my friend...

Geoffrey wrote:What will be the highest level of spells in this game? Ninth, or something else?

I'll let you know when I know. I think that when people read the spell system and the spell descriptions, it will trigger lots of cool ideas beyond what I've thought of. I think there's a lot you can do with it and after every playtest I end up with even more notes. So I'm writing the rules with the assumption that there will be lots of "after-market" additions on blogs, forums, 3PP products, etc. So the answer will probably be "something else"...and we'll see what it is together!

Ogrepuppy wrote:Err, that's not actual bone my friend...

http://www.threadless.com?streetteam=bygrinstow



So? Sometimes a Gnome can dress up as a clown, no?

Geoffrey wrote:What will be the highest level of spells in this game? Ninth, or something else?

Would there even be a need for spell levels? If all spells are scalable (and still useful) at higher levels?

Fonkin Hoddypeak wrote:Would there even be a need for spell levels? If all spells are scalable (and still useful) at higher levels?

The spell check DC is 10 + (spell level x 2). So the minimum DC for a successful level 1 spell is DC 12. Minimum check for a successful level 2 spell is DC 14. And so on. A level 1 spell may have the same effect on any check result of 30+, whereas a level 3 spell might have an even more powerful effect on a check result of 34-35 than on 30-33. So the difficulty of casting, and the range of effects, can still scale with level.

Something I've played with is letting lower-level casters take higher-level spells. Since a level 2 spell requires a higher check result to be successful (minimum DC 14 vs. DC 12 for level 1)...well, if a level 1 wizard wants to take a level 2 spell right off the bat, why not? It's harder to get an effective result and he'll more than likely not succeed in his attempts to cast it, but at least he could have the option. Anyway, still playing with that idea.

goodmangames wrote: Something I've played with is letting lower-level casters take higher-level spells. Since a level 2 spell requires a higher check result to be successful (minimum DC 14 vs. DC 12 for level 1)...well, if a level 1 wizard wants to take a level 2 spell right off the bat, why not? It's harder to get an effective result and he'll more than likely not succeed in his attempts to cast it, but at least he could have the option. Anyway, still playing with that idea.

You could allow it as an option, emphasizing to the GM to make any failures of such attempts will be more...severe. I'm sure a 3PP can come up with something really nasty for spell backlash, e.g., "So, your 1st level PC failed miserably to cast that 5th level spell, eh? Hmmm. Let me check my SGG(tm)'s Spells Gone Awry...ah! Since there's a difference of four levels, that's gonna add +20 to the Spell Failure Chart. What'd roll? Oh, dear. Well, suddenly your PC screams as his arms transform into tentacles. The screams are cut short as the tentacles wrap around your throat. Please make a Fortitude save...."

goodmangames wrote:Something I've played with is letting lower-level casters take higher-level spells....

On the face of it, I love that idea.

GnomeBoy wrote:

goodmangames wrote:Something I've played with is letting lower-level casters take higher-level spells....

On the face of it, I love that idea.

I also like that idea. It allows PCs the chance (however remote) to get to the good stuff sooner. It has long seemed sad to me that ninth-level spells (to take the most extreme example) are practically never used by PCs because the PCs very seldom reach high enough level to use these spells. This concern is underscored by the fact that the DCC game "is built on the assumption that some characters will die."

Hmmm. Suppose a first level wizard knew all the spells of a certain school or theme. Every level. He wouldn't be able to cast most of them at all, and some he could cast if he got very lucky, and the low level spells, he'd generally be able to pull off. A first level wizard would need a 28 to cast meteor storm. Probably not possible, but a fifth level wizard rolling a nat 20 +cl+3 for a high int (I'm just guessing at how it works here) could just barely pull it off, but he's more likely to melt his brain or polymorph his eyeballs. I say let him try! Hehehe

Geoffrey wrote:What will be the highest level of spells in this game? Ninth, or something else?

goodmangames wrote:I'll let you know when I know.

Tunnels & Trolls uses a 20-level spell system, which is kind of a neat range. There are lots of low-level spells and progressively fewer and fewer as the levels climb.

Also of note is that casting spells in T&T has a minimum INT required which gets higher with higher spell levels. (I believe that T&T also includes a cost to learn the spell from the Wizard’s Guild, which goes up as spell level goes up.)

• Level 1 spell = 10 INT, 8 Dex, 0 GP to learn
• Level 2 spell = 12 INT, 9 DEX, 500 GP to learn
• Level 3 spell = 14 INT, 10 DEX, 1000 GP to learn
  ...
• Level 10 spell = 28 INT, 17 DEX, 4500 GP to learn
  ...
• Level 20 spell = 48 INT, 27 DEX, 9500 GP to learn

Clearly, T&T has a different attribute scale (although it starts with 3d6) but you get the idea.

Fonkin Hoddypeak wrote:Would there even be a need for spell levels? If all spells are scalable (and still useful) at higher levels?

goodmangames wrote:The spell check DC is 10 + (spell level x 2). So the minimum DC for a successful level 1 spell is DC 12. Minimum check for a successful level 2 spell is DC 14. And so on. A level 1 spell may have the same effect on any check result of 30+, whereas a level 3 spell might have an even more powerful effect on a check result of 34-35 than on 30-33. So the difficulty of casting, and the range of effects, can still scale with level.

Of course, this means that the equation might have to be adjusted based on the number of spell levels. If the number of levels is too high, it becomes virtually impossible to achieve success.

Another question would be “3E compatibility” -- it might be nice to be some simple conversion so that a 3E spell from the SRD could be converted over to the new system. (For example, if you go with 18 spell levels a person could take a 3E spell and multiply level by 2 to get a quick approximation.)

finarvyn wrote:. (I believe that T&T also includes a cost to learn the spell from the Wizard’s Guild, which goes up as spell level goes up.)

In DCC RPG there is no wizard's guild. Wizards are scarce, and the few there are guard their secrets jealously. "Obtaining magical knowledge should be part of the adventure. Finding new spells and magical knowledge should be a motivational goal for any wizard player." In other words, if you don't do the legwork or library work to discover that Abu-Zihar's Loathsome Yawning is only inscribed on the teeth of Gudru the Immortal Giant King, and then track down Gudru and convince him to let you look at his teeth, you don't get to learn any new spells!

goodmangames wrote:

Fonkin Hoddypeak wrote:Would there even be a need for spell levels? If all spells are scalable (and still useful) at higher levels?

a) The spell check DC is 10 + (spell level x 2). So the minimum DC for a successful level 1 spell is DC 12. Minimum check for a successful level 2 spell is DC 14. And so on. A level 1 spell may have the same effect on any check result of 30+, whereas a level 3 spell might have an even more powerful effect on a check result of 34-35 than on 30-33. So the difficulty of casting, and the range of effects, can still scale with level.

b) Something I've played with is letting lower-level casters take higher-level spells. Since a level 2 spell requires a higher check result to be successful (minimum DC 14 vs. DC 12 for level 1)...well, if a level 1 wizard wants to take a level 2 spell right off the bat, why not? It's harder to get an effective result and he'll more than likely not succeed in his attempts to cast it, but at least he could have the option. Anyway, still playing with that idea.

a) well since you are doing table with the spells, instead of spell level you could just write "spell difficulty", but spell level are quite endorsed in the game so you can keep them
one solution:
Sleep
base DC: 12 (1st level spell)

b) since you are playing with the idea of letting a mage to learn any level of spell, you could take another route: maximum number of ready spell starting with 4-7 and giving +1 each 2 level (this would be particularly appropriate if you don't lose spells when you cast them) so a mage could go from 6 to 16 ready spell (1st to 20th level)
if he want's to loads himself with powerful but dangerous to cast spell or simple but less powerful spells... his choice.

mythfish wrote:Wizards are scarce, and the few there are guard their secrets jealously.

My favorite conception of a fantasy game world is exactly this. If a wizard were to walk into town -- and people discovered he was a wizard -- he might be run out of town (or worse) by afeared and angry villagers, or they might all keep their eyes on him, suspicious, wary, afraid they might do the 'wrong' thing, and ready to bolt if it looks like he's pulling out a wand... There are no arcane schools. There is no trade in magic items. A wizard is in contact with forces most folks don't even want to think about, much less explore. They aren't normal, even if they look normal. The guy that wanders the land in his furs, resting that huge battle axe on his shoulder is scary -- wizards are just unimaginable.

Yay for wizards.

GnomeBoy wrote: My favorite conception of a fantasy game world is exactly this. If a wizard were to walk into town -- and people discovered he was a wizard -- he might be run out of town (or worse) by afeared and angry villagers, or they might all keep their eyes on him, suspicious, wary, afraid they might do the 'wrong' thing, and ready to bolt if it looks like he's pulling out a wand...

I think that a good way to enforce this is that fumbled spell affects people who have seen the wizard casting a spell or just people who spoke to the wizard in the last week (or friends and so on)

e.g. all that spoke to the wizards in the last week get the cough (-2 on communication and what you want) for 1 week
e.g. all that have seen the wizards casting the spell will have nightmares for 1 week....

and so on

this would lead people to shun wizards and wizards to live like heremits....

furthemore the party members would have a lot of problems