Goodman Games

geordie racer wrote:Am I a heretic because I prefer Kull to Conan ?

No! I have yet to read the stories about Kull, but I prefer Solomon Kane over Conan.

I know that these aren't on the Appendix N list, and are considered science fantasy, but Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun," which is four books in total ( "Shadow of the Torturer," "Claw of the Conciliator," "Sword of the Lictor," and "Citadel of the Autarch"), are weird and wild and difficult to distinguish from other swords and sorcery stuff except when it gets bizarre and sci-fi. Maybe they aren't canonical to what your doing, but as inspiration for a sci-fi rendition they'd be perfect.

From Appendix N, I've just read The Face In The Frost by John Bellairs - a delightfully odd mix of whimsy and lurking menace. What struck me is that the DCC approach to spellslinging is a great way to emulate the unpredictability, power and mystery of magic in the book. Even though Prospero is an experienced wizard he really wings it at times.

geordie racer wrote:From Appendix N, I've just read The Face In The Frost by John Bellairs - a delightfully odd mix of whimsy and lurking menace. What struck me is that the DCC approach to spellslinging is a great way to emulate the unpredictability, power and mystery of magic in the book. Even though Prospero is an experienced wizard he really wings it at times.

Some love this book, others revile it. I think it's a quirky book and I enjoy reading it because magic is powerful yet not always predictable.

I agree about the "winging it" thing. I often run my OD&D games where players get spell lists but no details so they have to decide what a spell can do by just reading the title. Sometimes they come up with some creative interpretations. Now that's winging it.

Here are my latest few Appendix N reads. Merritt is always a treat to read: his style is very antiquated but the content is so strongly penetrated by subtle terror and dark longings. I wasn't overly thrilled about "The Shadow People"; it's just plain weird: hallucinogenic underdark dwellers living beneath modern-day Berkeley with overtones of "the people vs. the police state"? The cover art implies classic swords-and-sorcery but it's more of a 1960's culture war novel. If I hadn't already known that Gygax's derro are attributed to Richard Shaver's writings, I might attribute some of their origins to "The Shadow People." (And I haven't read Shaver yet, so once I do, I will revisit this topic!) At the very least, I think some of the "Gygaxian underdark" concept comes from "The Shadow People". I know that some folks also see elements of the drow in "The Shadow People," and the author does refer to her weird underdark dwellers as "elves," so I can see that as well.

"Creep, Shadow, Creep" was published in 1934, 40 years before D&D saw print, and seems a likely candidate for the origin concept of the D&D shadow. Quoting from the AD&D Monster Manual:

These horrible undead creatures are found amidst ancient ruins or deep beneath the ground. As they exist primarily on the negative material plane they drain strength merely by touching an opponent. They attack living things without hesitation in order to gain the life force of their prey. In addition to the 2-5 hit points of damage their chill touch causes, each hit also saps 1 point of the victim's strength.

Core concepts: negative material plane, chill touch, strength drain.

Now let's quote Merritt in "Creep, Shadow, Creep" (page 218 if you happen to own the same edition I do):

Their touch had not the vileness of the ape-armed thing, but from them came a strange and numbing cold. They tore at me with shadowy fangs, tore at my throat with red eyes burning into mine, and it was though the cold poured into me through their fangs. I was weakening. It was growing harder to breathe. The numbness of the cold had my arms and hands so that now I could only feebly struggle against the black cobwebs. I dropped to my knees, gasping for breath...

Later on, the protagonist is transported to a realm of shadow, which bears conspicuous similarity to the negative material plane (quoting from page 222)...

There were no stars, no moon, no sun. There was only a faintly luminous dusk which shrouded a world all wan and ashen and black. I stood alone on a wide plain. There were no perspectives, and no horizons. Everywhere it was though I looked upon vast screens. Yet I knew there were depths and distances in this strange land. I was a shadow, vague and unsubstantial. Yet I could see and hear, feel and taste...Ahead of me were shadow mountains, stacked against each other like gigantic slices of black jade...I was ankle deep in somber, shadowy grass starred by small glowers that should been gay blue instead of mournful gray...

Seems to be a correlation there! Each book in Appendix N that I read seems to put in place one more piece of the "D&D origin story"; these two were no exception.

goodmangames wrote:Here are my latest few Appendix N reads. Merritt is always a treat to read: his style is very antiquated but the content is so strongly penetrated by subtle terror and dark longings.

Yes, I agree. I've read Dwellers in the Mirage, a mix of lost world and cosmic horror. I particularly like the 3ft-tall gold-skinned pygmies (who may replace halflings in my game) and their use of giant slugs/leeches as guards.

I lay a challenge for you all: can you give me a top 3 books to give the Appendix N feel. To cut a long story short whilst I was serving Her Majesty in foreign climes my collection of books (rulebooks, gamebooks and novels etc) were deemed surplus to requirements... thus were donated to the charity bookshop. So to get back into a S&S/AppN feel, recommend me 3 (or so, I don't mid buying books ) for me to read. I have not read any for 20+ years apart from LotR and Dying Earth.

Cheers and good luck

Machpants wrote:I lay a challenge for you all: can you give me a top 3 books to give the Appendix N feel. To cut a long story short whilst I was serving Her Majesty in foreign climes my collection of books (rulebooks, gamebooks and novels etc) were deemed surplus to requirements... thus were donated to the charity bookshop. So to get back into a S&S/AppN feel, recommend me 3 (or so, I don't mid buying books ) for me to read. I have not read any for 20+ years apart from LotR and Dying Earth.

Cheers and good luck

If you're read Vance, I'd start with some S&S action as a contrast:

Robert E Howard - any Conan compilation that contains 'The Tower of The Elephant' and 'Red Nails'

Fritz Leiber - any Fafhrd and Grey Mouser compilation that contains 'Ill Met in Lankhmar'

maybe Moorcock as a third choice - an Elric compilation, the Del Ray one -'The Stealer of Souls'

Wow, top 3! That's a real challenge. I'll have to think about this. I second geordie's batch, though - Vance is critical, REH is critical, and I'd personally go with Moorcock over Lieber (I just like Moorcock's writing better) but either is a key contributor.

The other that's a "must have" is Edgar Rice Burroughs, especially the John Carter series. When I first read this I didn't see it as very relevant to D&D (it's set on Mars!) but the further I got, the more I realized that John Carter is the direct inspiration for the fighter class.

I'll have to think on some others and get back to you. There are so many others to choose from...how can I make this list without suggesting Lovecraft, either? Argh...

LOL I said it was a challenge but like any good DM I see the rules as guidelines rather than commandments...

But to make it slightly easier I just found I have a copy of "Farewell to Lankhmar" so I'll get my Leiber hit there

Machpants wrote:I lay a challenge for you all: can you give me a top 3 books to give the Appendix N feel. To cut a long story short whilst I was serving Her Majesty in foreign climes my collection of books (rulebooks, gamebooks and novels etc) were deemed surplus to requirements... thus were donated to the charity bookshop. So to get back into a S&S/AppN feel, recommend me 3 (or so, I don't mid buying books ) for me to read. I have not read any for 20+ years apart from LotR and Dying Earth.

Cheers and good luck

I would say...
1. Tolkien
2. Howard
3. Leiber

Appendix N lists the following as most influential upon AD&D:

de Camp & Pratt, "Harold Shea" Series; CARNELIAN CUBE
Howard, R. E. "Conan" Series
Leiber, Fritz, "Fafhrd & Gray Mouser" Series; et al.
Vance, Jack. THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD; THE DYING EARTH; et al.
Lovecraft, H. P.
Merritt, A. CREEP, SHADOW, CREEP; MOON POOL; DWELLERS IN THE MIRAGE; et al.

I'd take your three from this short list. Since you note that you've read The Dying Earth recently, we can set Vance aside. I'd therefore suggest the following three volumes, in this order:

1. Swords against Death by Fritz Leiber
http://www.amazon.com/Swords-Against-De ... 180&sr=1-1
(This volume contains most of the best Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories.)

2. The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian by R. E. Howard
http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Conan-Cimm ... 455&sr=1-3
(While this volume does not contain the two finest Conan tales ["Beyond the Black River" and "Red Nails"], it contains the most D&Dish of Howard's Conan tales.)

3. The Moon Pool by A. Merritt
http://www.amazon.com/Moon-Pool-Bison-F ... 255&sr=1-1
(This is arguably Merritt's best.)

Machpants wrote:LOL I said it was a challenge but like any good DM I see the rules as guidelines rather than commandments...

But to make it slightly easier I just found I have a copy of "Farewell to Lankhmar" so I'll get my Leiber hit there

Then I'd say go for Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword for a Norse Elves and Trolls saga.

Well I read the 1st (?) Conan: The Phoenix on the Sword. It has really whet my appetite for more ... unlike Dying Earth it was pretty fast and furious! A great read with lots of hinted depth.

A whole lot of Conan free at Gutenburg

I got all the Conan collections in black (along with some stories, Solomon Kane, Bran, and Kull). But still: what's the link to Gutenberg? I can never find anything on there.

Conan "the phoenix on the sword" is pretty sweet. It's the do-over of a Kull story, which was great, but it added the layers of the supernatural fight to it, and that blew my mind when I dug into it. REH's writing is visceral, even his short-short-short two-page horror stories; even his more moody, introspective stuff (like various Kull stories) is meaty, nutritious protein-writing. He only gets better.

I like Moorcock the more I read him.

HPL is good, especially his more solid stories (Dunwich horror, Call of Cthulhu, Colour Out of Space), but it's really bare stuff. It's like he's writing from far away, about stuff he sees out the window. Second- or third-hand reports of events, so the reader fills in so many more details from their own imaginations, and puts the separate details together for him.

Tolkien I like to take a chapter at a time, like he's painting a picture with that chapter and communicating something specific. It's not like our modern cliff-hanger style of trains and lures, of endless "join us next time" writing.


I picked up a pile of pulp paperbacks today thanks to this thread!
Two Moorcock stories (1 and 3 of the Runestaff/Hawkmoon stories, looks like);
one Burroughs "the Chessmen of Mars", which looks like book 5 (so maybe I'll start online until I can find paperback copies);
and 5 Lin Carter books: Sky Pirates of Callisto; Under the green star; Barbarian of World's End; When the Green Star Calls; the Immortal of World's End.

I'm really enjoying the list, but I'd like to add a suggestion: Frazetta's Fire and Ice movie is *so* S&S. I'm wondering if there is a link to what we're reading here in terms of a pulp book or something.

Also: how many of the ApN books are pulp in format? Are there any other pulp authors I should check out?

Also: I'm shocked the Brothers Grimm aren't on the list. Or other folktales collections. Pathfinder has Appendix 3, and only includes "a thousand and one nights", likely as there isn't much in the way of arabian pulp fiction (that I can think of, at any rate)

http://gutenberg.net.au/plusfifty-a-m.html#letterH

Scroll down a bit

DCCfan wrote:I would say...
1. Tolkien
2. Howard
3. Leiber

As much as I like Moorcock (Elric, Corum, etc.) and Poul Anderson's "Broken Sword", I have to agree with DCCfan's top three.

Tolkien gives the feel for elves, dwarves, dragons, wizards, and so on.

Howard gives the feel of combat, of going toe-to-toe with ancient evil wizards and giant snakes.

Leiber gives the city adventure life as well as the quest.

Machpants wrote:http://gutenberg.net.au/plusfifty-a-m.html#letterH

Scroll down a bit

thanks!

I just finished reading The Roaring Trumpet by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt. It must have been the inspiration for the G series of modules.

I'm reading Leiber's Swords Against Wizardry and found a great quote.

Again the Mouser shrugged. "If my rune reached Hasjarl's twenty-four wizards and blasted them too, then no harms been done-except to sorcerers, and they all take their chances, sign their death warrants when they speak their first spells-'tis a dangerous trade."

All DCC RPG wizards should feel like they are gonna die. It's just going to be a matter of when and how bad.

Nice F&GM quote. You can never have too many of those!

DCCfan wrote:All DCC RPG wizards should feel like they are gonna die. It's just going to be a matter of when and how bad.

I like your statement as well! This would make a great t-shirt!

goodmangames wrote:The other that's a "must have" is Edgar Rice Burroughs, especially the John Carter series. When I first read this I didn't see it as very relevant to D&D (it's set on Mars!) but the further I got, the more I realized that John Carter is the direct inspiration for the fighter class.

Actually, the real reason to read Burroughs is for the world building. Read a mars book, then read a venus book, a pellucidar book, a moon book and then read a Tarzan book just because you can't get enough. Burroughs was at his best when he was putting speculative into his fiction even though his "scifi" has very little science.

If anyone is interested in Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser, I just found a copy of the 1957 classic Two Sought Adventure, which is a compillation of nearly all of the F&GM stories that had been published up to that point.


The stories in this book include:

• Induction (1957; More of an intro than an actual story)
• The Jewels in the Forest (1939)
• Thieves' House (1943)
• The Bleak Shore (1940)
• The Howling Tower (1941)
• The Sunken Land (1942)
• The Seven Black Priests (1953)
• Claws From the Night (1951)

It does not include "Adept's Gambit (1947) for some reason, although I assume it had to do with reprinting rights. It also does not include the story "Scylla's Daughter" which was the first one actually written, but not actually published until 1961 (and later redone to become "The Swords of Lankhmar" in 1968).

One thing that I noticed of interest to me was that each of the seven stories has a short paragraph introduction. If anyone is interested, I posted those paragraphs here. I've been a fan of the F&GM books since the 1970's and don't think I've ever read those before. They don't seem to be in my Ace paperback or SFBC hardback editions. (If anyone has magazine versions of these stories, I'd be interested in finding out if they are published there or not. They probably were written in by Leiber 1957 in order to string the stories together into a single narrative.)

I found it refreshing to start the series with the older stories rather than go through the cycle the way it is currently being marketed. The older stories have a much different feel than the newer ones; more chills and less slapstick, IMO. My thought was "let's pretend that it's 1957 and I just bought the first book to be published in the series."

Thanks for the F&GM info.

Recently stumbled across a site that has free downloadable audiobooks, and they have (among many other things) Merritt and Burroughs.

http://www.booksshouldbefree.com/genre/Fantasy/3