Goodman Games

mythfish wrote:

finarvyn wrote:I've been a huge Amber diceless fan for a long time, but it seems that fewer and fewer gamers have heard of it. Even fewer have played it. Kind of sad.

In the end, I decided it wasn't really my cup of tea, but it was definitely an innovative and iconic system. Even more than most games, though, it really depended on the quality of the other people you were playing with.

Agreed. ADRP has a strange balance because you have to trust the GM but to a certain extent can't trust the other players. A lot like the Paranoia RPG. It's nearly impossible to "min/max" the game system, which is a nice perk.

Another interesting omission to Appendix N is Gardner F. Fox.

I mean, the guy wrote several S&S books. I have on my shelf:

• Kothar Barbarian Swordsman (1969)
• Kothar and the Demon Queen (1973)
• Kothar and the Magic Sword (1969)
• Kothar and the Wizard Slayer (1970)
• Kyrik: Warlock Warrior (1975)

While my first thought might be to dismiss Fox as being the author of just another Conan rip-off, then I rememberd that Fox wrote quite a few "Niall of the Far Travels" stories for Dragon magazine, asd as such had to be somewhat familar to Gygax prior to the creation of Appendix N. (Recall that Appendix N was an AD&D creation, not OD&D.)

Anyway, I'm surprised that he doesn't appear on the list.

Gardner Fox IS in Appendix N. I have his complete Kothar and Kyrik series sitting here beside me. They're hackneyed sword-and-sorcery, in my personal opinion, but they did make the list. As much as I dislike the books themselves, I love the cover art, especially how the Kothar series uses a different font for every book title in the series -- inspirational in a "1970s art direction" sort of way.

goodmangames wrote:Has anyone else made a concerted effort to read the entirety of Appendix N?

I got my MA in English specializing in speculative fiction, and I spent a lot of time concentrating on the pulp fantasy / sword and sorcery era, so I've read at least something by most all of the Appendix N authors, if not everything by all of them. In addition, I'm a librarian who runs our library's speculative fiction discussion group, Destination Wonder, so I slip a few of these classic authors in once in a while.

Also, I run the local DeKalb Roleplayers Meetup, and one of the programs I've begun is the Appendix N Book Discussion that meets bimonthly. (I am determined to indoctrinate ... *ahem* ... educate my fellow roleplayers in the old school one way or another!)

finarvyn wrote:I read many of those books back in "the day" but have discovered that most of my current gaming group hasn't read any of the real classic swords & sorcery tales.

I suspect that's why newer games aren't "old school", because many of the designers and players are basing their game on a very different background of stories.

If I may be so bold, I also suspect that's because the newer editions of D&D have become self-referential, in that rather than direct players to classic fiction that inspired the game, the players are directed toward the series based on WotC's intellectual properties.

Do understand, I'm not knocking Salvatore or any of the other authors who write that fiction, mind you, nor am I knocking WotC--it's a business, after all. I'm simply discussing an interesting pattern I've noticed over the decades I've been reading, studying, and writing about the material in question.

goodmangames wrote:Gardner Fox IS in Appendix N.

You're right, of course. I just re-read the list and there it is. I was just re-reading the "Nial of the Far Travels" stories and they weren't there, but both Kothar and Kyrik are.

I agree that they aren't great but I had been thinking that they were omitted, which I thought was strange. Clearly not left off, not a strange thing, and not books to spend a lot of time tracking down.

Roman wrote:

finarvyn wrote:I suspect that's why newer games aren't "old school", because many of the designers and players are basing their game on a very different background of stories.

If I may be so bold, I also suspect that's because the newer editions of D&D have become self-referential, in that rather than direct players to classic fiction that inspired the game, the players are directed toward the series based on WotC's intellectual properties.

That's a great observation. Many of the current rules sets (D&D and otherwise) have spawned books about the setting rather than basing a setting off of a successful book.

Much the same way that movie adaptations of a book are usually better than book adaptations of a movie. The movie can take a strong book and add interpretation, but the book often apes a movie and doesn't add any depth.

Heck, even Gary's Cyborg Commando RPG got a trilogy of books written about it. (One of the worst trilogies I've ever almost read, by the way. I got partway through book 2 before I had to quit or slit my wrists, so as bad as the reviews for the RPG the books are actually worse IMO.)

Great point on the self-referential nature of modern RPGs and associated fiction. I totally agree.

Very cool to start an Appendix N discussion group! Maybe I'll do that out here someday.

I've read some of the Appendix N authors over the years -- but I'm completely unexposed to others. So in the last couple of days I've picked up four books from authors on the list that I haven't read... Gotta have something to do to pass the time until the DCC RPG is in front of me.

Wow, feels like a while since I updated this thread! The holidays always get in the way of my reading schedule. Here's the latest two additions to my Appendix N reading project. Tolkien of course we've all read before, but Manly Wade Wellman was very interesting -- Appalachian magic with a strong flavor of "origins of the cleric" in Silver John's use of holy symbols to turn away witches, monsters, and demons...

Good point on John the Balladeer being cleric-like. I'd love to see some more of that flavor come through in the class, especially finding/re-discovering rituals and having books that contain them, whether it's The Long-Lost Friend or some examples from history.

goodmangames wrote:Gardner Fox IS in Appendix N. I have his complete Kothar and Kyrik series sitting here beside me. They're hackneyed sword-and-sorcery, in my personal opinion, but they did make the list. As much as I dislike the books themselves, I love the cover art, especially how the Kothar series uses a different font for every book title in the series -- inspirational in a "1970s art direction" sort of way.

I read one of the Kothar books about a year ago and I found it be a fairly mediocre Conan knockoff. I'd replace Fox with Karl Edward Wagner. Kane is a Conan knockoff done right- grimmer with quite a lot of weird science. And I'm pretty sure that the bullywugs were based on the frogmen from the Bloodstone novel which I highly recommend.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Edward_Wagner

Agreed on Kothar! Interesting on Wagner. I am not familiar with him but I'll add him to my list...

goodmangames wrote:Has anyone else made a concerted effort to read the entirety of Appendix N?

no... but I have read all the "most immediate influences" (in the word of Gary) except merrit

read:
Anderson, Burroughs, Carter, De Camp/Sprague, De Camp/Pratt, Dunsanny, Farmer, Howard, Moorcock, Tolkien, Vance, Zelazny

my favourite are Anderson, De Camp, Howard, Moorcock, Vance, Zelazny

goodmangames wrote:Agreed on Kothar! Interesting on Wagner. I am not familiar with him but I'll add him to my list...

Wagner is on some D&D edition's reading list- maybe one of the basic sets. Although I started reading them purely because of the kick ass Frazetta covers.



The books are a little hard to find though. I think it took me 3-4 years of searching used bookstores before I found them all.

One of my favorite is Dunsanny.

I love Lord Dunsanny.

His writings are both inspirational and enjoyable. He can evoke amazing mental images from his pen.

From this list, I just read The Face in the Frost by John Bellairs. D&D might have gotten some of its flavor for wizards from this as they were fairly eccentric characters. It was a short read, but even so I don't recommend it. It was an odd combination of whimsy and creepy that never felt quite right. Meh, just meh...

Hmmm. Whimsy and creepy? Sounds like just my kind of book.

JRR wrote:Hmmm. Whimsy and creepy? Sounds like just my kind of book.

Yeah, I'm sure that some people love it (at least by judging from the reviews on amazon). Here's a good description from its wikipedia article-

Playfully written with frightening dips into necromancy, the novel includes talking mirrors, carriages made out of turnips and miniature wizards bobbing through underground rivers in miniature ships, but also disturbing imagery including magically mummified animals, melting cities, and souls trapped within their own graves.

mshensley wrote:From this list, I just read The Face in the Frost by John Bellairs. D&D might have gotten some of its flavor for wizards from this as they were fairly eccentric characters. It was a short read, but even so I don't recommend it. It was an odd combination of whimsy and creepy that never felt quite right. Meh, just meh...

I like it a lot and have read it several times, but it always seemed like a kids book (I think that Bellairs wrote a lot of that kind of thing) so you have to approach it with the right mentality.

Some of the in-jokes are funny, others a bit strange. Some I probably don't get. If is a quick read, however.

I agree on Lord Dunsany - he's amazing.

Also agree on Face in the Frost. I think it was originally intended as a "young adult" book. I also found it inspirational in some places and downright odd in others.

I just finished reading The Spell of the Witch World by Andre Norton, which is actually three shorter stories set in that world. I wouldn't say it was the greatest thing since sliced bread (bacon on a maple doughnut is), but I can already feel some of the attitudes to the world, the scale of the world and the ways magic are talked about creeping into my upcoming campaign.

Heck, the monster at the center of the semi-illusional spiral of columns might even make an appearance...

Just finished Poul Anderson's The High Crusade. It was a very good and quick read. It's a great example of how the writing of novels (and rpgs) has changed over the years. Just compare this book (192 pages) with the very similar story (aliens land on earth in the past) in the World War novels by Turtledove (8 books ~ 4800 pages!).

Am I a heretic because I prefer Kull to Conan ?

mshensley wrote:Just finished Poul Anderson's The High Crusade. It was a very good and quick read. It's a great example of how the writing of novels (and rpgs) has changed over the years. Just compare this book (192 pages) with the very similar story (aliens land on earth in the past) in the World War novels by Turtledove (8 books ~ 4800 pages!).

I think back then, paper was more of a factor in price than now. Not that paper has gotten cheaper, but the price of everything else has gone up more. Books meant for the mass market were relatively short.

If you look at the more high brow stuff, like E.R. Eddison's fantasies (not in Appendix N, but at least in Giants of the Earth) they were extremely long, as they were aimed more at the hard cover market of the time.


Anyway, on the original subject, one of the things besides fantasy that struck me in Appendix N is the inclusion of mostly horror writers - HPL, August Derleth (he probably wrote more in Western and Mystery, but he's mostly famous now for his Arkham House stuff), and Manly Wade Wellman.

While I guess HPL might have been included because of his Dreamlands stuff, that doesn't explain Derleth or Wellman, really (I guess you could say his Silver John stuff is somewhat fantasy)