DCC Alignment question

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TheNobleDrake
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by TheNobleDrake »

Karaptis wrote:I kinda wish the odnd alignments were good, evil, neutral instead of law, chaos, neutral. The boundries are so much more defined that way. ( wait does that make me a minion of law?)
This is what I love (and hate) about alignment - i find law & chaos to have better defined boundaries than good & evil.

Law/Chaos always felt natural to me because the two speak about and are defined by the actual behaviors of characters, while Good/Evil always seemed ephemeral and fleeting because the two speak about and are defined by the motivations for behaviors.

One could attempt to justify a murder on the good/evil axis - taking one life is evil, but saving many lives with the act makes it less (or even entirely not) evil in the opinion of almost everyone I have ever spoken to. It is even this idea that caused our legal system to establish a difference between killing a man in the street for his watch and killing a man in the street who demanded you give him your watch.

I see no justification based "wiggly room" in law or chaos.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by Karaptis »

True but then the above comments always pop up like lawful hobgoblins and such.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by TheNobleDrake »

Right... but no evidence of chaos has been presented, where their existence is mentioned as having rigorous discipline and a clearly established hierarchy that centers around their militant behaviors - a behavior expanded upon by the goblin entry that mentions how they are cowardly and unorganized, except when a stronger creature (hobgoblin) is whipping them into shape.

So there is a clear case for law presented in the materials being contested by a stance that could be summed up as not liking the idea - which isn't actually a case for how their alignment should be listed as lawful based on the behaviors mentioned for them, as it is basically "Hobgoblins in my home games behave completely differently than mentioned in the example present in the DCC book, and as such are not lawful."
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by Blustar »

jmucchiello wrote:Hobgoblins have been lawful evil since 1e AD&D and there are standard D&D campaign settings where Hobgoblins form walled communities and trade with the "good" races.

It's orcs and ogres that are the brutish, chaotic types.
But it's the Evil that puts them on the side of Chaos in my games. Chaos represents destruction of "what is right" basically. Which standard D&D campaign setting has Hobgoblins helping and working with humanity? Orcs in AD&D were also Lawful Evil, as well as Kobolds and Goblins.

I'm not opposed to the change, I just don't get the reasoning behind it. My main "problem" with this alignment system is that what do the PC's care about any of this? Peasants don't even know what's beyond the next hill, to them a Hobgoblin is most definitely going to represent Chaos to his human world.

I've never used the Chaos/Law system from Moorcock in my games because it doesn't make sense at that level. ( the human level)
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Re: DCC Alignment question

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TheNobleDrake wrote:One could attempt to justify a murder on the good/evil axis - taking one life is evil, but saving many lives with the act makes it less (or even entirely not) evil in the opinion of almost everyone I have ever spoken to. It is even this idea that caused our legal system to establish a difference between killing a man in the street for his watch and killing a man in the street who demanded you give him your watch.

I see no justification based "wiggly room" in law or chaos.
Please note that "justifiable behaviour" does not mean that the behaviour is not evil; merely that it was a justifiable (or necessary) evil under the circumstances. If you think that the act of killing, however justifiable, is, in and of itself, good, then you are evil. If you do what you must do, but regret the need to do it, and seek other ways if possible, then not.

No wiggly room.
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by Karaptis »

I love alignment debates. They are almost the gamer version of religious wars. I agree with RC totally on this one thus making me a Ravencrowkingite. (what would our holy symbol look like?)
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Re: DCC Alignment question

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Karaptis wrote:I love alignment debates. They are almost the gamer version of religious wars. I agree with RC totally on this one thus making me a Ravencrowkingite. (what would our holy symbol look like?)
If it was a Star Trek debate, would you be a Ravencrowklingon? :D
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by TheNobleDrake »

Raven_Crowking wrote:
TheNobleDrake wrote:One could attempt to justify a murder on the good/evil axis - taking one life is evil, but saving many lives with the act makes it less (or even entirely not) evil in the opinion of almost everyone I have ever spoken to. It is even this idea that caused our legal system to establish a difference between killing a man in the street for his watch and killing a man in the street who demanded you give him your watch.

I see no justification based "wiggly room" in law or chaos.
Please note that "justifiable behaviour" does not mean that the behaviour is not evil; merely that it was a justifiable (or necessary) evil under the circumstances. If you think that the act of killing, however justifiable, is, in and of itself, good, then you are evil. If you do what you must do, but regret the need to do it, and seek other ways if possible, then not.

No wiggly room.
The exact wiggly room that I am talking about is what you mention though - justifying the evil act preventing it from being "evil enough," to change your alignment.

A paladin can take 30 lives in battle on two separate occasions, keep his alignment through one and fall from the other - and the difference comes down to his "wiggling" the right motivation and/or regrets about the action.

Otherwise every character I've ever seen played would have been evil from all of the breaking and entering, grave robbing, fraud, manslaughter and outright mass murder they commit with simple actions like exploring dungeons, collecting ancient treasures, acting as spies for suspicious lords, and defeating their enemies in battle.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by Raven_Crowking »

TheNobleDrake wrote:
Raven_Crowking wrote:
TheNobleDrake wrote:One could attempt to justify a murder on the good/evil axis - taking one life is evil, but saving many lives with the act makes it less (or even entirely not) evil in the opinion of almost everyone I have ever spoken to. It is even this idea that caused our legal system to establish a difference between killing a man in the street for his watch and killing a man in the street who demanded you give him your watch.

I see no justification based "wiggly room" in law or chaos.
Please note that "justifiable behaviour" does not mean that the behaviour is not evil; merely that it was a justifiable (or necessary) evil under the circumstances. If you think that the act of killing, however justifiable, is, in and of itself, good, then you are evil. If you do what you must do, but regret the need to do it, and seek other ways if possible, then not.

No wiggly room.
The exact wiggly room that I am talking about is what you mention though - justifying the evil act preventing it from being "evil enough," to change your alignment.
Well, then the same wiggly room exists in Law and Chaos. Your same paladin is "chaotic enough" to keep some of the treasure for himself, and to do things to benefit himself, under the same mantra...that it serves society more to make sure that he has the tools to become stronger.

Likewise, the average Chaotic knows enough to follow the law when he must. He just doesn't like it. He justifies it by claiming that he needs to do so in order to serve his interests better.

You can claim that both have "wiggly room", or that neither do, but you cannot claim a real difference without requiring a double standard.

RC
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by TheNobleDrake »

I suppose that I had not considered there being a law vs. chaos "debate" when it came to whether the paladin keeps treasure for himself - I thought of it as lawful to take treasure and use it for means that propagate law, whether that be through taking a share as "payment", donating to lawful organizations, or simply taking it all and using it where you find a need to further you goals (typically those of law for a lawful character)... and then I thought of it as chaotic to take the treasure and destroy it, or worse take it and flood an economy with coinage so that the established order of things wavers in the local area (what with day laborers skipping work for weeks because they can suddenly afford to and similar things).

I also thought of keeping what you want/need, like taking payment for your activities, and not doing any particular thing (whether it is a help or harm to a community) as being particularly neutral.

As for chaotics following the rules some times to better serve their ideals at others - I think of that like I think of druggies not lighting up in front of cops, or teenagers sneaking out a window when they have been told not to leave the house - it's more a difference of smart/stupid or crazy/sane than lawful/chaotic.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

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Ok then, would a conspiracy or organization that works to topple all governments or kingdoms which would ultimately lead to anarchy, would that group be lawful because they are acting in an organized way or chaotic because of the end game?
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Re: DCC Alignment question

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Karaptis wrote:Ok then, would a conspiracy or organization that works to topple all governments or kingdoms which would ultimately lead to anarchy, would that group be lawful because they are acting in an organized way or chaotic because of the end game?
Lawful.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by TheNobleDrake »

Karaptis wrote:Ok then, would a conspiracy or organization that works to topple all governments or kingdoms which would ultimately lead to anarchy, would that group be lawful because they are acting in an organized way or chaotic because of the end game?
That is a bit of a tricky one... though I have always viewed such an organization to be lawful despite their professed pursuit of chaos - Anarchy is, at least in one definition (a state of disorder due to nonrecognition of authority) very clearly chaotic.

I guess what it really would come down to, in order for me to feel comfortable making a call, is to see how that organization actually functions.

I was going to post a long, wordy, and probably rambling description of how an organization would be considered chaotic by me and how one would in turn be considered lawful - with both being capable of having the same goal... but instead I will just say this:

how one joins a conspiracy or organization says a lot about that organizations alignment:

If someone can simple become a member by deciding to state they are a member and then behave in the way members behave while working towards the goal - then that organization is Chaotic. My best example is Anonymous, who are really just bunches of people wherever in the world that share some ideas and can, for short times, band together and achieve great deeds that spread chaos.

If there is a clear and constant hierarchy, where you join up (probably via sponsorship) at a low rank and could work your way towards being in charge - then that organization is lawful, regardless of their goals.

I guess what I think is that a chaotic aligned person would not manage to actually adhere to the rules and practices of an organization even if that organization was intent upon removing established authority and government.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by finarvyn »

Karaptis wrote:Ok then, would a conspiracy or organization that works to topple all governments or kingdoms which would ultimately lead to anarchy, would that group be lawful because they are acting in an organized way or chaotic because of the end game?
I would classify it as Chaos, the same way that the Rebellion in Star Wars would be Chaos while the Empire represents law. This is, I suppose, the weakness in the Law-Chaos axis since in Star Wars the Rebellion clearly represents the good guys so Law=good doesn't work.

To me, Chaos doesn't mean "no structure" but rather trying to upset the order of things.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

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So the end goal makes the organization on the chaos side? I agree with that. I think alignment is in the eye of the beholder (gonna use the Judge term instead of DM) the most important eye being the judge's. A player could argue on the organization being lawful, but in the end it is up to the judge ( it sounds so lawyerish the whole judge thing).
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Re: DCC Alignment question

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finarvyn wrote:I would classify it as Chaos, the same way that the Rebellion in Star Wars would be Chaos while the Empire represents law. This is, I suppose, the weakness in the Law-Chaos axis since in Star Wars the Rebellion clearly represents the good guys so Law=good doesn't work.

To me, Chaos doesn't mean "no structure" but rather trying to upset the order of things.
See in Star Wars, I would classify both organizations as Lawful. They are organized around their purpose.

I do not see Chaos as ever organizing, except when a small lawful group is there to beat them in line.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by yell0w_lantern »

My impression of the works from Appendix N that I have read is that Good/Evil distinctions are of less importance than, say, in Tolkien which was quite downplayed by Gygax as an influence anyway.

At any rate, there are other systems that can be substituted or added if you find the current alignment system lacking. In fact, you can throw out alignment all together - Tunnels and Trolls gets along without it as does GURPS.

As someone else mentioned already, the Palladium alignment system may be more to your liking as it is more concrete.

I also might recommend simply tacking on the trait system from Pendragon or the blatant rip off of it in the Northern Reaches Gazetteer. Opposing traits add up to 20 and the distribution can change over time. The Judge can also compel a roll if you try to act against one of your strong traits.

Personality Traits
Chaste / Lustful
Energetic / Lazy
Forgiving / Vengeful
Generous / Selfish
Honest / Deceitful
Just / Arbitrary
Merciful / Cruel
Modest / Proud
Spiritual / Worldly
Prudent / Reckless
Temperate / Indulgent
Trusting / Suspicious
Valorous / Cowardly


Gazetter Version
Cautious v Rash
Modest v Proud
Peaceful v Violent
Generous v Greedy
Courageous v Fearful
Reverent v Godless
Forgiving v Vengeful
Energetic v Lazy
Honest v Deceitful
Trusting v Suspicious
Loyal v Unreliable
Dogmatic v Open-Minded
http://redbox.wikidot.com/forum/t-443239
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by finarvyn »

PeelSeel2 wrote:
finarvyn wrote:I would classify it as Chaos, the same way that the Rebellion in Star Wars would be Chaos while the Empire represents law. This is, I suppose, the weakness in the Law-Chaos axis since in Star Wars the Rebellion clearly represents the good guys so Law=good doesn't work.

To me, Chaos doesn't mean "no structure" but rather trying to upset the order of things.
See in Star Wars, I would classify both organizations as Lawful. They are organized around their purpose.

I do not see Chaos as ever organizing, except when a small lawful group is there to beat them in line.
I can't really disagree with your assessment, only I would comment that if the intent of alignment is to show the "us versus them" division then one side or the other would need to be classified as Chaos. The Rebellion seems more chaotic than the Empire, as the rebels are trying to topple the established order.

If you throw in the second axis (good-evil) then you could have the Empire be LE and the Rebellion be LG. With only one axis, however, I'd pick the Rebellion to be Chaos.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by Raven_Crowking »

TheNobleDrake wrote:I suppose that I had not considered there being a law vs. chaos "debate" when it came to whether the paladin keeps treasure for himself - I thought of it as lawful to take treasure and use it for means that propagate law, whether that be through taking a share as "payment", donating to lawful organizations, or simply taking it all and using it where you find a need to further you goals (typically those of law for a lawful character)... and then I thought of it as chaotic to take the treasure and destroy it, or worse take it and flood an economy with coinage so that the established order of things wavers in the local area (what with day laborers skipping work for weeks because they can suddenly afford to and similar things).

I also thought of keeping what you want/need, like taking payment for your activities, and not doing any particular thing (whether it is a help or harm to a community) as being particularly neutral.

As for chaotics following the rules some times to better serve their ideals at others - I think of that like I think of druggies not lighting up in front of cops, or teenagers sneaking out a window when they have been told not to leave the house - it's more a difference of smart/stupid or crazy/sane than lawful/chaotic.
Well, there you go, then. Lots of wiggly room in your thinking.

I don't see any difference between your thinking here, and what I (or others) have said about the good/evil axis.

Sure, you can view these things as being black and white, but they are not, really. Or, rather, what is Lawful or Chaotic, Good or Evil, may be black and white, but individual actions are steps upon a broader philosophical slope. One action of necessary evil does not make one evil. One action of necessary law-following does not make one Lawful. It is the broad behaviour, or very strong single behaviours, that define both characters and people. The person who shoplifts once to feed his family is not as Lawful as the one who does not; he is not necessarily Chaotic or Neutral, either.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: DCC Alignment question

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While writing a 0-level adventure for my players, I decided to add some giant ants. I noticed that in the DCC RPG book that the alignment of giant ants is Lawful. This makes sense because every elementary school kid knows that ants live in colonies in which every ant has a job to do in order to ensure the survival of the colony. In fact, some biologists consider an ant colony an organism onto itself. But, I don't think it could be argued that ants are good or evil. They're just very organized. And I expect they're going to eat some 0-level characters on Saturday...
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by GnomeBoy »

finarvyn wrote:...the Rebellion in Star Wars would be Chaos while the Empire represents law...
How about this: The Rebellion is made up of the remnants of the former Republic, which was toppled by the Sith. The Empire is going around, blowing up planets just to threaten someone to tell them the name of the next planet they should blow up. It's top operative chokes people to death at the drop of a hat. Don't let the military structure fool you -- the Emperor is insane, and will continue to act so and his Empire if not stopped will reflect his insanity more and more over time. Meanwhile, the 'chaotic' Rebellion wants to restore order.

It's not upside down.
The Rebels are Law (on the run);
The Empire is Chaos...
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by finarvyn »

GnomeBoy wrote:
finarvyn wrote:...the Rebellion in Star Wars would be Chaos while the Empire represents law...
How about this: The Rebellion is made up of the remnants of the former Republic, which was toppled by the Sith. The Empire is going around, blowing up planets just to threaten someone to tell them the name of the next planet they should blow up. It's top operative chokes people to death at the drop of a hat. Don't let the military structure fool you -- the Emperor is insane, and will continue to act so and his Empire if not stopped will reflect his insanity more and more over time. Meanwhile, the 'chaotic' Rebellion wants to restore order.

It's not upside down.
The Rebels are Law (on the run);
The Empire is Chaos...
Cool, Jon! I like your interpretation! :D
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by Noodles »

best description of the three alignment system ever

http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/07/jef ... nment.html
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by GnomeBoy »

Chaos might appear orderly, if that suits it's needs -- but it's still Chaos in the end! :mrgreen:
Noodles wrote:best description of the three alignment system ever

http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/07/jef ... nment.html
I'm glad he specifies they are the Kirby versions of Thor, Odin, et. al. -- of course I'd side with them! Some of my characters on the other hand... :lol:
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Re: DCC Alignment question

Post by dunbruha »

Noodles wrote:best description of the three alignment system ever

http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/07/jef ... nment.html
Except in DCC, Cthulhu is Neutral...
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