Goodman Games

Now that February is here and there's no DCC to expect, , I was thinking.

Even though D&D Next is slated for open playtest and there's all that buzz/hype going on, I'm still more interested in getting my DCC Core Rules and the plethora of modules due to come out.

At least with DCC, I get a stronger feeling that I wouldn't have to worry about yet another "edition" coming out within 3-5 years with DCC, unlike the track record for D&D. Not bashing WotC or anything, it's just the nature of the beast. I still have no idea as to whether or not D&DN will even be to my liking. But I'm still stoked as all get-out to start playing with my full version of DCC.

So, yeah.

Pilgrim wrote:At least with DCC, I get a stronger feeling that I wouldn't have to worry about yet another "edition" coming out within 3-5 years with DCC, unlike the track record for D&D.

An excellent point. I think that this one rules set will remain constant for quite a while. If somehow typos sneak past us, maybe Goodman Games would correct them for a later printing (the way TLG has done with C&C) but I don't anticipate any significant rules changes in the future.

The other factor is that D&DN is a huge unknown at the moment. Maybe it will be old school, maybe not. At least with DCC we know basically what it will be like.

And, no, I don't want to bash WotC either. I'm hoping for the best for D&DN. I just don't feel confident that it will end up looking like I hope it will look.

The hub-bub about D&DN has been interesting to watch (both heartening and sickening at the same time), but mostly it has rekindled in me the desire to get the DCC RPG rules finally in print. The only thing that rivals it is looking forward to the 1e AD&D reprints (assuming I can figure out how to get them in the UK).

I'm caotious but optimistic so far about D&D Next, but DCC RPG is more interesting and HackMaster is more awesome, in my opinion.

It's the business model that WotC uses that keeps me from becoming interested and returning to official D&D. I hate planned obsolescence.

If a game is "all that" than why re-invent the game after three to five years? In twelve years WotC has produced 3.0, 3.5, and 4th editions. Sales were sluggish and therefore a new edition needed to be created. I'm a college bookstore manager and I see this mentality all the time with college textbook publishers. (Does anyone other than the execs at Pearson or McGraw-Hill Publishing REALLY believe a new edition of a basic math text needs to come out every two years????)

It irked me when TSR came out with 2nd edition back in '89 (I was unaware of the internal nastiness going on then at TSR) since AD&D along with its supplements, Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures, made the game viable for many years to come.

I wish the folks at WotC the best of luck and hope the can bring some customers back to pen-and-paper RPGs, but I will stick with folks like Mr. Goodman and the Troll Lords.

Give me DCC-RPG and Castles & Crusades!

JediOre wrote:It's the business model that WotC uses that keeps me from becoming interested and returning to official D&D. I hate planned obsolescence.

If a game is "all that" than why re-invent the game after three to five years? In twelve years WotC has produced 3.0, 3.5, and 4th editions. Sales were sluggish and therefore a new edition needed to be created. I'm a college bookstore manager and I see this mentality all the time with college textbook publishers. (Does anyone other than the execs at Pearson or McGraw-Hill Publishing REALLY believe a new edition of a basic math text needs to come out every two years????)

I know what you mean. "Brock Biology of Microorganisms" comes out with a new, slightly different, edition every two years like clockwork. Luckily I get a free copy each time so it allows me to give my old edition away to a lucky student in my first lecture.

JediOre wrote:It irked me when TSR came out with 2nd edition back in '89 (I was unaware of the internal nastiness going on then at TSR) since AD&D along with its supplements, Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures, made the game viable for many years to come.

I wish the folks at WotC the best of luck and hope the can bring some customers back to pen-and-paper RPGs, but I will stick with folks like Mr. Goodman and the Troll Lords.

Give me DCC-RPG and Castles & Crusades!

I'm OK with the pacing of new editions by WotC ('cos I only ever played and purchased 1e AD&D). I think 5e has come out much sooner than they would have liked/planned because it was such a flop relatively speaking. Pathfinder's capturing of a significant proportion of the market must have been quite a slap in the face to them, and not just to the bean-counters at Hasbro. Thus, I can see their reasoning for wanting to draw a line under 4e sooner rather than later. I also wish them luck with 5e.

What I also hope they will finally see is that reprinting 1e, 2e, 3e/3.5e is still a viable proposition. They shouldn't think it will detract from the sales of their latest and greatest edition, because it should be the D&D brand, in all its aspects, that has to make the US$100 million p.a. gold standard. I'm encouraged they may have recognized this with the re-issuing of the 1e AD&D books, but I also suspect this is just a market research exercise to gauge how many of the OSR community there really is (and specifically how many of them who are prepared to spend money). That will inform them on how much to pander to that particular sector with 5e. Then again, when Mike Mearls was asked a DDXP if they were going to re-issue 1e modules, he was leading in saying he was not prepared to answer that at the moment. This suggests to me that they might well re-issue them if the 1e rule books sell well (which they certainly will).

One thing's for certain though. WotC will still salami-slice their products to try and make as much money as possible, and it's that business approach that really gets up my nose.

At the end of the day, I wonder if D&D has actually passed its dominance. With people moving to Pathfinder and further, many will now know first hand that they can get just as good (and I would argue much better) roleplaying experiences from other sources. DCC RPG will be one of those.

Stainless wrote:At the end of the day, I wonder if D&D has actually passed its dominance. With people moving to Pathfinder and further, many will now know first hand that they can get just as good (and I would argue much better) roleplaying experiences from other sources. DCC RPG will be one of those.

Indeed. If this were the 80s again, I'd say D&D might make a big comeback, but even with what WotC is trying to pull off, I hesitate, since I now so many more games are available now, than back when TSR was top dog.

With games like DCC, C&C, Hackmaster, plus the gorilla that is PF, I think WotC might be losing an uphill battle for reclaiming the majority of the fan base. It may be time for them to realize that D&D will only be one of many D&D-like games and not a big money maker like it used to be.

I guess only time will tell.

I'm coming to the conclusion that Pathfinder may well be the apex of systems master D&D. But, it is awfully tough to just point your ten year old cousin towards it and suggest the go read it and try some role playing. I think there is a lot of room in the market for a game with the classic D&D flavor and feel, but much more simplicity. This might include some elements prominent in the OSR movement, but I think it will also have a distinctly modern spin.

Ravenheart87 wrote:I'm caotious but optimistic so far about D&D Next, but DCC RPG is more interesting and HackMaster is more awesome, in my opinion.

Not sure which editiion of HackMaster you're thinking of, but I agree in some ways but disagree in other ways.

4E HackMaster had so many rules it was kind of crazy. Humor not as funny as I hoped, or at least not as funny as the KoDT comics the rules were inspired by. Also, so many monster books. Ugh.

The newer 5E HM is pretty neat. Stll a little detail-oriented but not nearly as much as 4E.

meinvt wrote:I'm coming to the conclusion that Pathfinder may well be the apex of systems master D&D. But, it is awfully tough to just point your ten year old cousin towards it and suggest the go read it and try some role playing.

The Pathfinder Beginner's Box is a great product for new roleplayers. It did a waaaay better job of introducing people to concepts and rules than the new D&D red box did.

The OSR, ACKS, Crypts & Things, DCC RPG, D&D Nouveau, then add the stuff from Frog God & LotFP... it's awesome as far as I'm concerned. I'll buy what I can afford, use what makes sense, and rocks fall and everyone dies. It's all good for the Dak & Dice RPG Tool-box.

I'm more anxious for DCC RPG at this moment, but I'm not going to pass on the D&D Next play-test, that's just stubborn.

JediOre wrote:It's the business model that WotC uses that keeps me from becoming interested and returning to official D&D. I hate planned obsolescence.

They talk today about no longer having editions and updates. Not sure how they will handle that as a corporate entity, but the current designers are saying they aren't calling it 5th edition because that implies there is a 6th edition and they want D&D to just be D&D.

jmucchiello wrote:

JediOre wrote:It's the business model that WotC uses that keeps me from becoming interested and returning to official D&D. I hate planned obsolescence.

They talk today about no longer having editions and updates. Not sure how they will handle that as a corporate entity, but the current designers are saying they aren't calling it 5th edition because that implies there is a 6th edition and they want D&D to just be D&D.

Interesting... I suppose that they could be attempting to fall back on the old model for the music industry. Back in the early days record companies would pump out single 45's and practically give them away just to get people listening to the artist. They make their money with the concerts, t-shirts, and stiffing the artist. I could see WotC doing something similar, with conventions acting like concerts and they can always make money selling new modules, novels, etc.

It'll be interesting to see where they go, and it's nice that they have finally noticed just how much they've been pissing people off with their 'new edition marry-go-round' business model. (I jumped off at 3.5) This D&Dn idea will need to be truly awe inspiring if they want any more of my $$. I'm sold on the DCCRPG as my system of choice, because even with the level of detail I maintain in my game, I'm still only spending about 1/3 of the time in prep-work that I used to; and I haven't had this much fun with any RPG in quite some time.

Pilgrim wrote:Now that February is here and there's no DCC to expect, , I was thinking.

Even though D&D Next is slated for open playtest and there's all that buzz/hype going on, I'm still more interested in getting my DCC Core Rules and the plethora of modules due to come out.

At least with DCC, I get a stronger feeling that I wouldn't have to worry about yet another "edition" coming out within 3-5 years with DCC, unlike the track record for D&D. Not bashing WotC or anything, it's just the nature of the beast. I still have no idea as to whether or not D&DN will even be to my liking. But I'm still stoked as all get-out to start playing with my full version of DCC.

So, yeah.

I never understood not playing a game because a new edition will come out someday. It you like just play it. If not then don't pay it. Why do you care if a new edition is made?

reverenddak wrote:I'm more anxious for DCC RPG at this moment, but I'm not going to pass on the D&D Next play-test, that's just stubborn.

Well said!

I have completely given up on D&D. Although, I will continue to happily play 1st Ed. AD&D and adapt ideas and modules down to it. After Gygax left TSR, D&D just began to sour for me. And when TSR was purchased by Wizards and then Wizards by Hasbro, I felt kind of sickened. Nobody was making the kinds of games I loved anymore. But when I got my first look at the DCC stuff for the 3rd ed, I was impressed. Now I am anxiously awaiting playing a new game for the first time in years! The beta rules really capture the feel and excitement of the old games and I can't wait to see the final product!

Well, if you have money falling out of your pockets and nothing else to spend it on... sure, buy every version. I wish people luck with D&Dn, and hope you all have shelf space for the soon to be published D&D 6e. I remember when WotC bought TSR. They made promises then about how they weren't interested in changing the system... they just wanted to re-organize it and make it easier to play. They lied to us about both, and I have no intention of falling for that line of horse sh!t again. I skipped 3.0 because it was horribly broken, and the only reason I got involved in 3.5 is because I love D&D and got tired of searching for 1e and 2e players. I giggled when they released 4.0 because it confirmed for me that WotC is in fact clueless as to the nature of the 'Gamer' demographic... most of us are dirt poor or spending our money on college, or just plain struggling to get to the next payday and don't have the extra $$$ laying around to waste on replacing our game system every few years.

I'm not stubborn.
I'm a man of principles.

If the DCCRPG hadn't come along I would probably just run my games from the on-line 3.5SRD... it has everything you need to run a 3.5 game. It's more portable, better organized than the books, and its FREE.

Stubborn was a strong word, I really meant silly. I mean this mostly because the play-test will be FREE.

@tortog. But I totally understand where you're coming from. I would share my terrible experience with 4.0, with both players and WotC, but I don't think it's worth re-living. 3x was "too much", and because of that I have no reason to believe Pathfinder would be better. I definitely don't have the money to throw around, and when I do it now only goes to indie mom & pops. I've already spent a bunch of cash on gaming sh*t this year, and it's only the beginning of Feb. But I got them* because I know they'll help my game. I have found that OD&D stuff works right out of the box with DCC RPG. Which is awesome because I was playing S&W before I switched over to DCC.

*FYI, I got printed copies of Fight-On +4, Knockspell Collected 1-3, and S&W Monster Book (which I already owned and paid for on PDF.)

reverenddak wrote:Stubborn was a strong word, I really meant silly. I mean this mostly because the play-test will be FREE.

@tortog. But I totally understand where you're coming from. I would share my terrible experience with 4.0, with both players and WotC, but I don't think it's worth re-living. 3x was "too much", and because of that I have no reason to believe Pathfinder would be better. I definitely don't have the money to throw around, and when I do it now only goes to indie mom & pops. I've already spent a bunch of cash on gaming sh*t this year, and it's only the beginning of Feb. But I got them* because I know they'll help my game. I have found that OD&D stuff works right out of the box with DCC RPG. Which is awesome because I was playing S&W before I switched over to DCC.

*FYI, I got printed copies of Fight-On +4, Knockspell Collected 1-3, and S&W Monster Book (which I already owned and paid for on PDF.)

That's exactly why I didn't take the risk with Pathfinder.

I too have noticed that the shelf with my collection of old modules was transformed over night from old curio to active game reference. The best part is that there are modules in there that I never got a chance to use the first time around, now DCCRPG gives me the chance to dust them off.

neverreflected wrote:I have completely given up on D&D. Although, I will continue to happily play 1st Ed. AD&D and adapt ideas and modules down to it. After Gygax left TSR, D&D just began to sour for me. And when TSR was purchased by Wizards and then Wizards by Hasbro, I felt kind of sickened. Nobody was making the kinds of games I loved anymore. But when I got my first look at the DCC stuff for the 3rd ed, I was impressed. Now I am anxiously awaiting playing a new game for the first time in years! The beta rules really capture the feel and excitement of the old games and I can't wait to see the final product!

I feel your pain, but if you look around there actually are some other cool options out there, many of which see excellent support.

For example Goblinoid Games produces Labyrinth Lords, which is an old-school RPG most similar to Basic/Expert D&D. Troll Lord Games makes Castles & Crusades, sort of an AD&D-3E blend. Brave Halflling Publishing is producing Delving Deeper, which will be similar to OD&D. There are many others (S&W, OSRIC, etc) and they see various levels of support. You probably would enjoy most of them if you love old time D&D.

DCC has its own unique flavor but in many ways is similar to the games listed above. And DCC is about to have amazing support. It's a good time to love old school gaming!

finarvyn wrote:DCC has its own unique flavor but in many ways is similar to the games listed above. And DCC is about to have amazing support. It's a good time to love old school gaming!

YUP! The OSR is kicking butt right now. Totally winning. It helps that they're almost completely compatible with each other. The tweaks are minimal if any. and a lot of us on this forum will be happy to share tips, tweaks, conversions, etc.

And now "Adventurer, Conqueror, King" has just been released. Old School meets a bit of new school.

Tortog wrote:If the DCCRPG hadn't come along I would probably just run my games from the on-line 3.5SRD... it has everything you need to run a 3.5 game. It's more portable, better organized than the books, and its FREE.

There is an equally free online Pathfinder SRD and Pathfinder does have some improvements over 3.5 as well as some things that you probably wouldn't like. But the cool part of the Pathfinder SRD is that it is more than just the core books. Several of the expansion books (for sale at Paizo for $29.99-$49.99) are just sitting there in the pfsrd. Paizo as a company are just much cooler than Wizards ever will be. d20pfsrd.org I think is the URL. And even if you do stick with 3.5 (while waiting for DCCRPG of course), the pfsrd stuff is compatible.

jmucchiello wrote:

Tortog wrote: .... d20pfsrd.org I think is the URL. And even if you do stick with 3.5 (while waiting for DCCRPG of course), the pfsrd stuff is compatible.

Thanx for the info, but at the time I was making that decision there was still a much larger pool of 3.5 players, that's why I held my nose (metaphorically speaking) and learned the3.5e system. PF is different, but not enough difference to justify the time and expense, so the larger pool of players became the determining factor.

IMO the perfect RP gaming system is defined as:

1. simple concepts
2. well organized
3. flavor neutral

The game system that gets all three right becomes invisible during play.
I figure that the DCCRPG gets:
1. A+
2. A
3. B- (never been a fan of 'Hackmaster' style games, but this part is easy to swap out.)

WotC or Hasbro or whatever owns the rights for D&D has had four attempts and is embarking on their 5th... If they haven't gotten it right by now, they aren't likely to succeed at all. IMO they should admit defeat and turn all the material over into the public domain.

Now I have the DCCRPG, even the beta version is better than most of the available D&D clones, and the final is awesome. I'm going to to keep running my beta campaign, so I don't need anything else. I'm just waiting for room in my budget to pre order the modules.

As I'm reading "Adventurer, Conqueror, King", a little voice in the back of my head keeps saying, "Don't waste time/energy reading any more, because it will all be forgotten once the DCC RPG comes out. Although ACKs is very good, the DCC RPG is more your style. Forget this ACKs thing and just wait a little longer for DCC RPG. We wants it! We wants the Precious!"

Ga! Wish it was April already.