Goodman, please don't publish DDC RPG until after November!

[bholmes4]

Great news. Obviously it would be nice to have it magically ready for November but I'd rather have it done "right" than rushed.

Thanks.

[finarvyn]

The tremendous amount of great feedback from the beta test led me to want to test and change various parts of the manuscript, as well as incorporate some specific feedback on new ideas (like spell-specific corruption and misfire results...which is cool but is word and time intensive to write).

Just to springboard off of this -- I'm looking at the "Beta Plus" rules sent to just a few of us and the changes are looking really solid to me. I'm hoping to run my crew through a shakedown this weekend, but I'd say that from what I've seen so far the move to shift the publishing date to Feb is a good one.

Not only will the rules be better, but having a lot of instant support is a huge bonus. I hate buying a game, then waiting for months to get modules designed for that system.

Thumbs up from me.

[DCCfan]

I hate buying a game, then waiting for months to get modules designed for that system. Thumbs up from me.

Good point. Waiting for game + waiting for modules to play game = Frustration.

[jmucchiello]

Just to springboard off of this -- I'm looking at the "Beta Plus" rules sent to just a few of us and the changes are looking really solid to me.

Disappointing but expected. The wide beta shook out a lot of problems. I hope this narrow beta plus does the same thing. I know there's no reason to expect a second public beta. That's fine. It also means there's little reason to haunt these boards again until end of January. The problem with delaying is there's now nothing do. The old beta rules are flawed and adding my own house rules to them does nothing for DCCRPG. I don't have a solution beyond a second beta. But since I don't expect that to happen I have no idea what solution there is to the issue. Maybe in January I'll be able to get excited about DCCRPG again. But right now, it's all just meh. It's not just me. The writer I lined up for a Book of Patrons is also a little bored with DCCRPG. There just this wait and see attitude about the whole thing.

[geordie racer]

Just to springboard off of this -- I'm looking at the "Beta Plus" rules sent to just a few of us and the changes are looking really solid to me.

The majority of us are stuck trying to work with a system that has problems. It's not 'broken' enough that I'll discard it but I've had a hard time getting my gaming group to stick with it.

I think the pre-orderers should be granted access to the Beta Plus.

[MrHemlocks]

Just to springboard off of this -- I'm looking at the "Beta Plus" rules sent to just a few of us and the changes are looking really solid to me.

The majority of us are stuck trying to work with a system that has problems. It's not 'broken' enough that I'll discard it but I've had a hard time getting my gaming group to stick with it.

I think the pre-orderers should be granted access to the Beta Plus.

I agree! If they allow pre-orders early accesss to the new beta rules I will pre-order 2 hard copies. I will need two copies...one for my collection and the other for those pizza eating players to drool over. Like yourself, my group is choosing another fantasy RPG till DCC is released. The choices are Hackmaster, The One Ring or Pathfinder...so I went ahead and bought all three

My real love is for DCC and when it is released I will start a DCC campaign at my local game store. Let's face it...DCC is just kick butt fun!

[goodmangames]

I wish it were that easy but let me make sure everyone understands exactly what Marv is referencing. The beta rules you guys saw were professionally edited, illustrated, and laid out. What he is seeing is my MS Word file, which has typos, random notes to myself, unfinished sentences, and so on. It's enough to play the game with but it's certainly not something that should be displayed as an example of "what's to come." If you saw it, you would all conclude bad things about the quality of the final work! Plus I tinker with it constantly so "today's rule" might change in a couple days after I play again and find some new change I want to make. So, in other words, it's not really something suitable for public display, whether as part of a pre-order bonus or not.

The game will be awesome and the delay will be worthwhile. But obviously it leaves you without something to do in the meantime. I'll keep providing tidbits as the publishing process moves along - soon we'll have art previews (what you saw in the beta was only a fraction of the art in the finished work), and some bits of other rules as they get finalized, and possibly some layout previews as well when we get closer.

[geordie racer]

Fair enough Joseph. More art - OMG !!!

[GnomeBoy]

Fair enough Joseph. More art - OMG !!!

I see... it's a game book AND an art book for your coffee table (or your Mountain Dew table, as the case may be).

[abk108]

Like yourself, my group is choosing another fantasy RPG till DCC is released.
...
My real love is for DCC and when it is released I will start a DCC campaign at my local game store. Let's face it...DCC is just kick butt fun!

• Yeah my group stopped playing too... we had 5 sessions, then a little too many bugs arised, and I just couldn't try houseruling everything... It just wouldn't have been the same game! Thing is, my players are quite inexperienced (this being their first Rp experience, actually), and I chose this game because it seemed easy and quick to start... that and I wanted to play a retro game. But most of my usual rp friends wouldn't want to try it, they're too attached to modern gaming to "embrace the awesome!" (quoting the DCCRPG Character Generator) so I figured that new players simply couldn't have that problem.
  That turned out true. But they lacked the mental elasicity to accept rule changes and houserules. My fault for choosing the wrong players probably
• I ended up writing a homebrew system I had an idea for since a couple of years ago... we'll probably try that in the meantime...
• Joseph, keep up with the good work... this is not at all a criticism against your game, it's just sharing an experience...
• maybe I shouldn't have found out this game before release... but I feel I grew a lot as a roleplayer in these forums! So no regrets ^^

[Geoffrey]

[W]hat you saw in the beta was only a fraction of the art in the finished work.

Holy cow!

[abk108]

[W]hat you saw in the beta was only a fraction of the art in the finished work.

Holy cow!

LOL

However, even 99/100 is a fraction

[geordie racer]

I ended up writing a homebrew system I had an idea for since a couple of years ago... we'll probably try that in the meantime...

I'm going to give Arcanix a try

[Stainless]

This is good news to me and I applaud the artistic/business judgement it took. If you look back through the forum posts, I think I was the first or one of the first to suggest a longer development time would be desirable. So full marks from me!

While I wait for the DCC RPG to finally be born, I have the Age of Treason setting to devour (I can't recommend this setting enough), Mongoose's 'new' Legend system (i.e., MRQII rebooted), The One Ring (Cubicle 7), Ashen Stars (Pelgrane Press),and Cthulhu buy Gaslight (Chaosium). Thus, I have more than enough to keep me entertained.

[DCCfan]

I ended up writing a homebrew system I had an idea for since a couple of years ago... we'll probably try that in the meantime...

I'm going to give Arcanix a try

I'll continue to run 3.5 DCC's for now. Next up The Dread Crypt of Srihoz.

[finarvyn]

Just to springboard off of this -- I'm looking at the "Beta Plus" rules sent to just a few of us and the changes are looking really solid to me.

Disappointing but expected.

Disappointing that Joseph is still trying to improve the rules set? Strange, since you are one of those who keep making suggestions. Perhaps you mean disappointing that it's not "out there" for all to look at yet?

I wish it were that easy but let me make sure everyone understands exactly what Marv is referencing. The beta rules you guys saw were professionally edited, illustrated, and laid out. What he is seeing is my MS Word file, which has typos, random notes to myself, unfinished sentences, and so on.

And it's mostly the same as the Beta rules, so it's not like the whole system has been trashed and Goodman Games is starting over. Some of the tweaks are similar to ideas tossed around here on the boards and it all builds on the main framework in the Beta rules.

And, no, it doesn't look at all like a finished product. I can't wait to see that extra artwork, etc.

[finarvyn]

[W]hat you saw in the beta was only a fraction of the art in the finished work.

Holy cow!

LOL

However, even 99/100 is a fraction

Quite true! You get bonus XP for this observation!

[abk108]

However, even 99/100 is a fraction

Quite true! You get bonus XP for this observation!

Yay!!!

[jmucchiello]

Just to springboard off of this -- I'm looking at the "Beta Plus" rules sent to just a few of us and the changes are looking really solid to me.

Disappointing but expected.

Disappointing that Joseph is still trying to improve the rules set? Strange, since you are one of those who keep making suggestions. Perhaps you mean disappointing that it's not "out there" for all to look at yet?

Of course that what I meant. It also means there's no reason to come here often any more. I use come here daily and there were 10-20 new posts in 5-10 threads. Now I come here every 2-3 days and there are 4-8 new posts in 2-4 threads. The beta is unplayable and there is nothing to take its place.

I wish it were that easy but let me make sure everyone understands exactly what Marv is referencing. The beta rules you guys saw were professionally edited, illustrated, and laid out. What he is seeing is my MS Word file, which has typos, random notes to myself, unfinished sentences, and so on.

And it's mostly the same as the Beta rules, so it's not like the whole system has been trashed and Goodman Games is starting over. Some of the tweaks are similar to ideas tossed around here on the boards and it all builds on the main framework in the Beta rules.

And, no, it doesn't look at all like a finished product. I can't wait to see that extra artwork, etc.

[/quote]
Quite frankly I don't care about extra artwork. I thought the beta had too much artwork and in fact expect that the beta could have come out sooner if it had lower production value. I don't expect a beta to have artwork. Nobody does. It was a waste of time to do layout on the beta.

What do the 10 level classes look like? How does that affect MDoAs? Are there experience point rules yet? What did he do with the skill chapter that he should have gotten of (this really sticks in my craw: the game is a retro-offspring and yet he thinks people need the familiar 3e+ skills in the game? I don't get it. D&D had nothing resembling skills for 10 years. DCCRPG doesn't need them either)? Did he take the LOW DCs advice? Did he take the d10 for untrained skills advice? More funky dice? Less funky dice? Is there an XP system yet?

For me, the game has become something some put up on a website and stopped supporting except to say "Version 1.0 is coming" (Thanks, Lord Stark). And thus, it is disappointing. So I'll add a bookmark to my "check occasionally" list and find my online RPG fix somewhere else.

[Ogrepuppy]

Just to springboard off of this -- I'm looking at the "Beta Plus" rules sent to just a few of us and the changes are looking really solid to me.

The majority of us are stuck trying to work with a system that has problems. It's not 'broken' enough that I'll discard it but I've had a hard time getting my gaming group to stick with it.

I think the pre-orderers should be granted access to the Beta Plus.

If not Beta Plus.....we should get a rough Beta Plus Plus version.

Something.

I don't express disappointment with ANY Goodman product or idea (even the occasional crap ones...and sadly there have been the sporadic clunker here and there), but for the first time I feel kinda let down that there's this elusive, exclusive group of people that get access to Beta Plus rules that I, as a loyal purchaser and supporter for many years, do NOT get access to.

I'll get over the disappointment in February, but...just sayin'.

[JediOre]

. . . for the first time I feel kinda let down that there's this elusive, exclusive group of people that get access to Beta Plus rules that I, as a loyal purchaser and supporter for many years, do NOT get access to.

Bhaw-ha-ha-ha! Yes, you small peon, you do not have access to what we privileged few have. We of the Secret Knowledge will. . . .

Ahh, who am I kidding? I'm just as much in the dark as you Ogrepuppy.

[Harley Stroh]

I appreciate everyone's passion around this. It bears noting that people are only bummed because they really like the portions of the game released so far. They're are rightly disappointed about the delay because they are supporters of the DCC RPG. Not the sort of people I care to disappoint.

It also bears noting that all the great feedback has resulted in changes Joseph and the rest of us are continuing to work through. It's a live, messy playtest in the best sense of the word. Right now the priority has to be to get the manuscript ready for Feb. This doesn't mean everything else is unimportant, but just less important than making the Feb deadline.

Fin and I aren't in a position to promise more rules releases (ala the revised cleric and thief classes) but we are just as eager to share the new work as you are to play it.

//H

[Harley Stroh]

. . . for the first time I feel kinda let down that there's this elusive, exclusive group of people that get access to Beta Plus rules that I, as a loyal purchaser and supporter for many years, do NOT get access to.

Bhaw-ha-ha-ha! Yes, you small peon, you do not have access to what we privileged few have. We of the Secret Knowledge will. . . .

Ahh, who am I kidding? I'm just as much in the dark as you Ogrepuppy.

Even my home playtest group, the Expendables, only has been given the class rules.

I know it isn't fair, but find me at a con and you can flip though the full text.

//H

[smathis]

I appreciate everyone's passion around this. It bears noting that people are only bummed because they really like the portions of the game released so far. They're are rightly disappointed about the delay because they are supporters of the DCC RPG. Not the sort of people I care to disappoint.

As a long time supporter, let me say I'm not at all disappointed by the delay. I think it's the best thing for the game. Joseph is being responsive to our feedback while staying true to his vision for DCC. That's great, IMO.

The beta isn't unplayable. But it is just a few points shy of where it needed to be, IMO. Joseph is working on that part now and I, for one, would rather have a revised ruleset in February than a cleaned up Beta in November.

My sole concern is there is an impression that guys like finarvyn, Hamakto (Andy) and a few others have a T1 line to Joseph's ear regarding changes to DCC while the rest of us are lost in the forum. A lot of people on here have had some great suggestions and it's hard to tell whether those voices are being heard.

I assume so. But it's difficult to tell if that's the case from the changes we're seeing.

[Harley Stroh]

Smathis,

Heard loud and clear. We're considering all ideas and suggestions, regardless of the source. There is not a privileged set of personalities.

On the forums it is easy to feel like you are writing into a void. I'd ask folks to have faith that, while many ideas might not receive a formal response, we are working our way through the feedback, throwing it into the Appendix Nd20 hopper and seeing what comes out the far side.

(The one caveat I'd add is that I do give some more attention to suggestions/issues that arise out of actual playtests and playtest reports. I'm only speaking for myself, as clearly a lot of changes have been made to the core book that originated with people reading the book and calling out problems.)

Will every idea get used? Unfortunately, no. The DCC RPG has a very clear vision of what it is - and isn't - to be. Wound points, variant armor rules, etc. might end up in third party releases, or even in an annual, but they won't make the core. Not that they aren't excellent suggestions, but simply because they aren't in the core vision of the DCC line.

However, that shouldn't stop people from making radical suggestions. We were dead set on levels 1- 5 and you saw where that went. Same with thief abilities. And there are many more refinements and changes to come.

//H