Dice...

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Re: Dice...

Post by Sizzaxe » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:10 pm

Just got my two sets of Zocchi dice today!!! They're kewl! 8)

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Re: Dice...

Post by weezoh » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:43 pm

Sizzaxe wrote:Just got my two sets of Zocchi dice today!!! They're kewl! 8)
I got two zocchi packs from amazon yesterday - only drawback is no d7. I was glad to get them before the weekend though. I wish the d3 didn't have rock, paper, scissors on them so prominently though - the numbers are kind of small.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Stainless » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:35 am

The thought has occurred to me, why doesn't some one make a d6 with 1 - 3 repeated, a d10 with the numbers 1-5 repeated and a d14 with the numbers 1-7 repeated? The last two would certainly allay some people's fear that the d5 and d7 can't roll evenly for all numbers because of the different sized/shaped faces.
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Re: Dice...

Post by finarvyn » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:18 am

Stainless wrote:The thought has occurred to me, why doesn't some one make a d6 with 1 - 3 repeated, a d10 with the numbers 1-5 repeated and a d14 with the numbers 1-7 repeated? The last two would certainly allay some people's fear that the d5 and d7 can't roll evenly for all numbers because of the different sized/shaped faces.
I've seen the first two dice types you mentioned and suggested the d14 with 1-7 repeated already in a previous thread, so naturally I'd agree with the notion. More sides tends to make for a more true roll.
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Re: Dice...

Post by goodmangames » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:41 am

Treebore,

Given all the commentary on the Zocchi dice, I do think it's fair to ask me to answer the question: "Why?" At a gut level I feel it is the right thing to do, both creatively and as a business move.

Creatively, I like funky dice. I get a fun feeling of nostalgia when using Zocchi dice; they're clever and engaging; and they broaden the market. Yes, I said, "broaden the market." Show the Zocchi dice to a 7-year old and watch what happens. Although DCC RPG is clearly aimed at grognards, I have a thought on our target demographic that seems to have escaped many of the commentators: we're all in our 30's and 40's...but many of us have kids. DCC RPG has been very successful with children; at con games, we playtesters routinely run sessions with grognards and their young children. I did this myself most recently at Gamex / Strategicon up in LA two weekends ago. I had a session with a bunch of guys over 30...and a 10-year-old. It was a lot of fun and the kid loved it. And the funky dice were part of his enthusiasm. This kid not only has the excitement we all felt when we discovered polyhedrons, but he has polyhedrons that no other kid at school has!

"But wait," the commentators keep saying, "the funky dice will prevent me from playing the game! This is costing us sales!" Maybe. You can never be sure until the product releases. But I'm not so sure there is any risk here. "Funky dice threads" have created a lot of publicity for DCC RPG. For every forum post decrying the game's funky dice, someone who likes dice has discovered the game and pre-ordered it. So far I believe the publicity around the weird dice has been generally positive for sales.

But what if I removed the funky dice from the game? Would many prospective buyers then have their barriers removed, and decide to try out DCC RPG?

What do you think?

Personally, I think gamers are an opinionated lot. (And I count myself among that category: I got my professional start in this industry by making such a stink about WH40K 2nd edition that I got hired by Games Workshop's primary competitor at the time.) There's a certain set of gamers who tend to be highly loyal to a certain vision of gaming, and are hard to convert to new products. I know, from 10 years of doing Goodman Games, there is a large pool of gamers out there who are so far from my aesthetic that no game I produce will ever appeal to them. These gamers will reject the game due to a wide variety of reasons, and funky dice is as good as any other.

On the flip side, there are several hundred thousand gamers who have purchased Dungeon Crawl Classics modules over the last 8 years, and THEY are the potential customers for DCC RPG for whom I hope the dice are not a barrier. To those customers -- and Treebore, I consider you one of these, based on what I know of your tastes -- I offer this commentary: I do appreciate your support over the years, and, if you are not already a dice-lover, I do hope you give DCC RPG a try! I believe there are three reasons you may still like DCC RPG despite the funky dice:

(1) DCC RPG is cheaper than almost all competitors, even with the dice, once you understand its product structure. DCC RPG will consist of one core rulebook, a lot of modules, and an annual supplement of some kind. Playing most other games on the market right now requires an initial layout for the core rulebook, often a separate expenditure for various DM or monster books, and then regular investment in the official sourcebooks that release every few months. Not so for DCC RPG. I will ask you to spend $35 for the core rulebook, which is already cheaper than almost every other quality hardback on the market right now. (Not to "name names" but go look at what other companies are asking for core rulebooks these days: with the exception of the Troll Lord low-priced C&C intro strategy which I greatly admire, almost every other hardback readily available in a game store is in the $50-$60 range.) I will then ask you to spend about $25 on dice. And then you don't have to spend anything else, ever. There will not be iterative sourcebooks that offer constantly expanding "official" rules. There will not be monster books, character books, rule books, campaign books, adventure paths, blah blah blah. What will there be? Well, there will be no shortage of DCC modules, and one annual supplement featuring some adventures and any cool rule ideas that came up in the prior year. DCC RPG is one of the most affordable games on the market, even with the dice.

(2) You probably already own far too many dice...right? You've got a dozen d20's, a gazillion d6's, and bunches of other dice. We all do! We're gamers! I personally own more dice than I can easily transport. So I ask that you spend one year not buying any more "normal" polyhedron...and instead invest in Zocchi dice. I've experienced this scenario at almost every con: A guy walks up to watch me play...declares he doesn't want to spend money on "weird dice he'll only use once"...then I watch him walk to another table and open his dice bag to display literally hundreds of "normal" dice that he can't possibly use on an ongoing basis! For those of you who currently own lots and lots and lots of traditional polyhedrons, I say: save the $25 you would have spent on "other" dice this year for Zocchi dice. They're more interesting than another sparkly d20 that will simply replace one of the other d20's you already own.

(3) And, finally... you really don't need the dice to play. There are multiple threads on these boards from people who have substituted other dice in live play with no problems whatsoever.

At some point in the coming months I'll offer some sort of special dice offer. I do want people to enjoy DCC RPG, and I am interested in overcoming obstacles to play. For those genuinely interested in playing the game, I'll try to find something that works well to resolve "the dice barrier." Maybe a Groupon offer, maybe a dice trade-in offer...I'm not exactly sure yet. And I'm open to ideas for anyone who has any. Obviously I have to pay for the dice so I can't give them away for free, but I'm open to offers that could mitigate the expense on the gamer and allow Goodman Games to break even. DCC RPG is a fun game to play, and I'll think you enjoy it -- especially with a d16 in one hand and a d20 in the other!

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Re: Dice...

Post by Kruvil » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:28 am

Joseph,

Thanks for your inside look at the business and gaming decisions behind the DCC RPG. A lot of your explanations set my mind at ease. Explaining your design and business strategy as well as listening to your customer/playtesters shows us a lot of respect. I appreciate it.

Also, I actually already own a d30 and I've got to use it in only one campaign in the last two and a half decades. I'm looking forward to finally getting to use it on a regular basis!

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Re: Dice...

Post by meinvt » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:52 am

My major complaint about the funky dice is that I want convenience most of all (particularly when dropping $20 on a dice set). To me that means:

Opaque dice
Pre-Inked in a contrasting color (easily visible)
No sanding or 'fixing' required to use
A complete set of the non-standard shapes in one box

I respect Zocchi, but I'd rather have pre-inked tumbled dice than something with mold marks that need to be sanded off before use. I don't want to ink my own, and I don't want dice I can see through.

I do want the full range d3, d5, d7, d14, d16, d24, d30, d34 in one package if that is what is needed for the game.

I wanted to go buy dice for playtest, and concluded that I just don't like the options available. So, for now I'll be improvising with the set I have. Put a $20 set of DCC RPG (special dice) with one of each the above eight shapes in the same simple color scheme, and I'll buy. Probably more than one set in different colors.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Doomwarden » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:02 am

meinvt wrote:My major complaint about the funky dice is that I want convenience most of all (particularly when dropping $20 on a dice set). To me that means:

Opaque dice
Pre-Inked in a contrasting color (easily visible)
No sanding or 'fixing' required to use
A complete set of the non-standard shapes in one box

I respect Zocchi, but I'd rather have pre-inked tumbled dice than something with mold marks that need to be sanded off before use. I don't want to ink my own, and I don't want dice I can see through.

I do want the full range d3, d5, d7, d14, d16, d24, d30, d34 in one package if that is what is needed for the game.

I wanted to go buy dice for playtest, and concluded that I just don't like the options available. So, for now I'll be improvising with the set I have. Put a $20 set of DCC RPG (special dice) with one of each the above eight shapes in the same simple color scheme, and I'll buy. Probably more than one set in different colors.
+1

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Re: Dice...

Post by Stainless » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:03 am

Yes, thanks for that insight Joseph. I for one, had not heard of these other dice until I started reading about the DCC RPG. Then I bought a set just out of interest without feeling the need to ever use them. And I paid a premium for them here in the UK. If anything, they're worth their price just so I can freak out friends who have similarly never seen them before.

If your expectation is that the Zocchi dice won't deter too many buyers, why not incorporate them more fully into the DCC RPG mechanics, as has been suggested in a number of threads (e.g., the thieves percentile ability system)? They are already one of the distinctive features of the game and it looks like a lot of the criticisms of their use is that they are not particuloarly integral to the system as a whole. Thus, if they become more entrenched in the system as a whole (in intelligent ways mind you), it may convince some who are on the fence that the investment is worth it and those who love them already will love them even more!
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Re: Dice...

Post by Geoffrey » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:06 am

Great post, Joseph. For me, the funky dice are a plus. Weird, arcane dice add to the game's mystique. Imagine if D&D had been made for use only with 6-siders. :(

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Re: Dice...

Post by Dreamslinger » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:33 am

For Android devices there is a free diceroller app called Dice Bag that will let you create any sided die you need.
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Re: Dice...

Post by reverenddak » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:35 am

Let's see...

I love Precision Gamescience dice. They're my favorite dice, some people in my gaming groups hate them (because I boast about them, and I have the clear-diamond versions, and they're hard for THEM to read) while some love them, and have gotten their own. I still use the precision dice I bought 30 years ago.

I love the OSR games for various reasons that I don't have to defend. BUT I love some modern games too, innovation is innovation, and I'm not that stubborn or above them. DCC caught my eye while perusing OSR blogs and I just happening to be obsessed with Appendix N. I just finished The Dragon Masters & The Last Castle by Jack Vance and finished the second Lankhmar book before that, and I finished all the Dying Earth, E.R.Burrough's Princess of Mars, the first two Flashing Swords Anthologies, several Elric books and Michael Moorcock's Wizardry & Wild Romance (a treatise on Sword & Sorcery) a couple other things the past few months. Yes a lot a reading, mostly Appendix N. So you can see my appeal for DCC RPG.

Put the two together?!!! F-yeah I'm gonna get more Zocchi dice. I was not a hard sell for me. I can't express how the timing is just right for this game, these dice. I love 'em. And since we have them, we might as use them A LOT!
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Re: Dice...

Post by Troy812 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:53 am

I love the Zocci dice.
It will help to bring in some fresh air to a RPG.

Great idea putting them in!

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Re: Dice...

Post by Machpants » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:40 pm

meinvt wrote:
I do want the full range d3, d5, d7, d14, d16, d24, d30, d34 in one package if that is what is needed for the game.
This is pretty important to me, I like my dice to be a set, the fact you cannot get a d7 really sucks cos the d7 out there is horrid. GG needs to really get onto gamescience and push for a full set, put a DCC logo on it and we're off and running IMO.
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Re: Dice...

Post by mshensley » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:01 pm

Doomwarden wrote:
meinvt wrote:My major complaint about the funky dice is that I want convenience most of all (particularly when dropping $20 on a dice set). To me that means:

Opaque dice
Pre-Inked in a contrasting color (easily visible)
No sanding or 'fixing' required to use
A complete set of the non-standard shapes in one box

I respect Zocchi, but I'd rather have pre-inked tumbled dice than something with mold marks that need to be sanded off before use. I don't want to ink my own, and I don't want dice I can see through.

I do want the full range d3, d5, d7, d14, d16, d24, d30, d34 in one package if that is what is needed for the game.

I wanted to go buy dice for playtest, and concluded that I just don't like the options available. So, for now I'll be improvising with the set I have. Put a $20 set of DCC RPG (special dice) with one of each the above eight shapes in the same simple color scheme, and I'll buy. Probably more than one set in different colors.
+1
++

The biggest downside of the weird dice to me is there is only one manufacturer for all the ones that are needed. Zocchi. I've tried to like their dice but I just can't. I don't like the way they feel. I hate having to ink my own. I hate the mold marks. I don't like how light they are. I've got three sets of the damn things and I just want to throw them in the garbage.

Less fair or not, I like my dice smooth, rounded and shiny.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Nox » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:12 pm

Hello All,

I've been lurking these forums for months now but have not contributed to conversation as I did not feel I had anything to add that was not already said by someone else. I have broken my silence on the dice issue because I wanted the designers to know that I was turned of at the idea of zocchi dice originally but have accepted it and adapted. I like the core concept and direction of the game too much to let a simple dice issue stop me. The only real pain is buying the new dice. I discussed the dice issue with some of my friends (your target group) and we agree that the following is a good "cost effective intro":

d3 (d6 halved)
d5 (d10 halved)
d7 (d14 halved)
d14 (purchase)
d16 (purchase)
d24 (purchase)
d30 (d3 and d10 method, eventually)

So you need your original polly set and three new dice to start. We agreed that we would never use those 3, 5, and 7 sided monstrosities! Hey, we're meeting you half way here ;)

If you ever do decide to sell some sets, could you sell the d6, d10, and d14 that count to 3, 5, and 7. I think this may reduce some dislike of the funky dice. In my travels, I have seen this for the d6 and d10 but not for the d14. Just make sure to get them in a different color then your core polly set :)

Good work Joseph, I look forward to the final product.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Treebore » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:12 pm

Thanks for the reply Joe.

I'm definitely not writing this RPG off just yet.

One thing to consider. I do game with my kids. They now age in range of 15 to 19. They each strongly prefer having their own set of dice, and guess who buys them? Me. So if I do get my family into this RPG I would have to buy 4 sets of dice, maybe even another one if my wife gets into the mood to play when we play.

We also play L5R and Shadowrun. So your right, I already have tons of dice. If I get into this RPG, I'd have to buy a fair number more. Not sure if I want to do that. Your asking me to dish out $25 for a few highly specialized dice when I can go on Amazon and buy a pound o dice for the same amount of money. Which gives me over 100 dice, usually 118 to 126 of them. Yes, I have bought a few pounds of dice over the years. Because not only do I have to supply my kids, but I often have new players here at my house or at conventions, and I provide them with the ugliest non coordinated sets I can create so they don't steal them. Works pretty well I might add. Plus handing them out in zip lock bags with inventory lists helps too.


So one of your target audiences, gamers with kids, may find the dice cool and get their enthusiasm levels up, but then the parent will start adding up how much it will cost to get their self and their kids each their own set of dice, that they use ONLY for this RPG, and will start having second, maybe even third thoughts about getting into it.

I know I am. now if you can offer a "Family Bag" or "Gamer Group Bag" with 4 or 5 full sets (of your system unique dice) in them for about $25, then I think I could jump on this band wagon. But if I have to look at $100 or more? I'll likely let this wagon pass on by.
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Re: Dice...

Post by goodmangames » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:29 pm

No problem Treebore - just use the "normal" dice to simulate the funky ones. Roll a d8 and drop the 8 to simulate d7, etc. I often run con games for players who don't own Zocchi dice and we make it work. Give that a try and let me know what you think of the rules in actual play. :)
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Re: Dice...

Post by Aplus » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:40 pm

I think that was a well-put response, Joseph.

As far as ideas for breaking down the perceived dice barrier, have you considered offering a subscription for the modules? Perhaps a set of dice could be offered to subscribers as a freebie or at a discount. Barring that, I like the groupon idea. And my last idea would be including some sort of discount voucher with the core rulebook.
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Re: Dice...

Post by Treebore » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:41 am

goodmangames wrote:No problem Treebore - just use the "normal" dice to simulate the funky ones. Roll a d8 and drop the 8 to simulate d7, etc. I often run con games for players who don't own Zocchi dice and we make it work. Give that a try and let me know what you think of the rules in actual play. :)
What would be the best way to simulate the D14? You mentioned threads talking about this, which forum are they in?
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Re: Dice...

Post by birthright » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:40 am

Treebore wrote:
goodmangames wrote:No problem Treebore - just use the "normal" dice to simulate the funky ones. Roll a d8 and drop the 8 to simulate d7, etc. I often run con games for players who don't own Zocchi dice and we make it work. Give that a try and let me know what you think of the rules in actual play. :)
What would be the best way to simulate the D14? You mentioned threads talking about this, which forum are they in?
EDIT:
[strike]d8 x d2 (re-rolling if you get an 8 on the d8)[/strike] This was wrong (see below)!

What I meant was: (1d2-1)*7 +1d8 (re-roll if the d8 comes up as an 8)
Last edited by birthright on Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Stainless » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:12 am

Treebore, this is not the most convenient, but if you happen to game with a PC or some other Internet/web browsing capacity, you could use random.org (absolutely fab site by the way).

http://www.random.org/integers/

Perhaps GG could host their own web page with a dice roller on it...
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Re: Dice...

Post by finarvyn » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:51 am

meinvt wrote:I respect Zocchi, but I'd rather have pre-inked tumbled dice than something with mold marks that need to be sanded off before use. I don't want to ink my own, and I don't want dice I can see through.

I wanted to go buy dice for playtest, and concluded that I just don't like the options available.
My experience is pretty similar, overall. I prefer inked and opaque dice that I don't have to tinker with.

I bought a couple of sets of glow-in-the-dark green uninked Zocchi dice and spent forever trying to ink them with a sharpie. I'm still not done.

I finally went to a different dice vendor and bought some the funky ones -- d3, d14, d16, d24, and d30 but not the d5 or d7 -- but couldn't get them all to match. Very frustrating.

I'm sure that if demand is out there, the dice folks will recognize it and make more color and style options, but at the moment purchasing funky dice is kind of frustrating.
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Re: Dice...

Post by finarvyn » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:59 am

birthright wrote:
Treebore wrote:What would be the best way to simulate the D14? You mentioned threads talking about this, which forum are they in?
d8 x d2 (re-rolling if you get an 8 on the d8)
No. This method will mess up the mathematics. A d14 is "linear" so that each number has equal probability, but 2d8 is "bell" which means that center numbers are higher probability than extreme numbers. While your method will generate a number range similar to what you want, the actual results will be bad.

For a d3 or d5 you can simply roll a larger die and divide by two. For a d16 or d24 or d30 you can do it with a smaller die and a "control" die. (An example of a control die would be for a d24 simply roll a d12 plus a "control" d6 where 1-3 means don't modify the d12 and 4-6 means add 12 to get the 13-24 numbers.)

I think that a d7 and/or d14 are the hardest to simulate. I'd suggest rolling a d20 and simply re-rolling a result of 15-20.
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Re: Dice...

Post by birthright » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:11 am

finarvyn wrote:
birthright wrote:
Treebore wrote:What would be the best way to simulate the D14? You mentioned threads talking about this, which forum are they in?
d8 x d2 (re-rolling if you get an 8 on the d8)
No. This method will mess up the mathematics. A d14 is "linear" so that each number has equal probability, but 2d8 is "bell" which means that center numbers are higher probability than extreme numbers. While your method will generate a number range similar to what you want, the actual results will be bad.

For a d3 or d5 you can simply roll a larger die and divide by two. For a d16 or d24 or d30 you can do it with a smaller die and a "control" die. (An example of a control die would be for a d24 simply roll a d12 plus a "control" d6 where 1-3 means don't modify the d12 and 4-6 means add 12 to get the 13-24 numbers.)

I think that a d7 and/or d14 are the hardest to simulate. I'd suggest rolling a d20 and simply re-rolling a result of 15-20.
Heh, yeah thanks for the correction, finarvyn. I realised I messed that up as soon as I hit "Submit" and because it was my first post, I couldn't edit it! :oops:



Of course, I meant to say use the 1d2 as a 'control die':
i.e. (1d2-1)*7 + 1d8 where the d8 is rerolled if it comes up as an 8.
Which looks more complicated written like that than it actually is: Basically, roll 1d2 and 1d8. Reroll the 1d8 if it comes up as an '8'. If the 1d2 is a 1, then use the d8 roll 'as is'. If the 1d2 is a 2 then add 7 to the 1d8 roll.
Last edited by birthright on Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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