Dice...

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Treebore
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Dice...

Post by Treebore » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:53 pm

Do you explain why you have to have the special dice somewhere? Because unless you give me solid mathematical reasons why no other "standard" dice types can do the job all your odd ball dice are going to be a HUGE turn off with me. I've seen others post similar thoughts in discussions of earlier announcements and play tests of this game.

And no, I don't want suggestions on how I can use other dice and adjust them, divide them, or whatever, I want to roll a dice and BAM! Thats the number I use! So please give me a solid mathematical reason to why these odd ball dice just HAVE to be used. Why D14? Why not 2d8? Or 2D6? Why D5? Why not a D4 or D6?
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Re: Dice...

Post by Sizzaxe » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:13 pm

Cause they're kewl 8)

No, wait that's not mathematical. :wink:

Well, a d14 is actually easier than 2d8 mathematically. Because you don't have to perform the addition. And you're generating 15 outcomes instead of 14. That's true repeatedly for other dice as well.

If you're looking for a reason why they would choose to introduce new dice that you're obviously going to have to buy when you could avoid that, it's 'cause they're kewl.

And lastly, imo, it hearkens back to the spirit of the old days when we first bought our sets of polyhedrons. I mean we could have asked the same thing back then: "Why do I need all these funky dice? Why can't I just use a regular 6 sided die?" Why? 'cause they're kewl man!

That prolly didn't help much, but I mean funky dice are now ubiquitous in the gaming industry. We _could_ do without them, use chits, or playing cards; But dice are just a part of what we do.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Hamel™ » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:03 am

Treebore wrote:And no, I don't want suggestions on how I can use other dice and adjust them, divide them, or whatever, I want to roll a dice and BAM! Thats the number I use! So please give me a solid mathematical reason to why these odd ball dice just HAVE to be used. Why D14? Why not 2d8? Or 2D6? Why D5? Why not a D4 or D6?
Because 2D8 (or D8+D6) doesn't give you a uniform distribution like a single die does.

BTW, the only problem is with D7 and D14 because:
- D3 is just a D6 where 1=1 or 2, 2=3 or 4, 3=5 or 6
- D5 is just a D10 where 1=1 or 2, ... , 5=9 or 10
- D16 is just a D8+D2, where D2's faces are 0 and 8 (and it's an uniform distribution, like D20)
- D24 is just a D8+D3, where D3's faces are 0, 8 and 16 (and it's an uniform distribution, like D20)
- D30 is just a D10+D3, where D3's faces are 0, 10, 20 (and it's an uniform distribution, like D20)

Because you can't emulate D7 and D14 (unless you have a small bag with numbered stones) you need to roll D8 or D16 rerolling if the higher valors occur.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Stainless » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:00 am

It's true that the use of Zocci dice will immediately cull off easily 25% of potential sales. If not more. It was a brave (fool-hardy?) choice to include them. So far, in the wild (i.e., forums like rpg.net, the rpgsite, etc.) the main stated turn-offs for the game are; the dice, the 0-level character funnel, the dictatorial tone of the writing and the heavy reliance on tables. Sadly, I expect all of these will have serious impacts on sales.

Re mathematical reasons, I obviously don't know for certain, but I suspect that if you want a mechanic that uses two dice and where one is lesser than the other in order to enforce a lower probability to the secondary roll, then the traditional set of dice just don't provide enough granularity. Using the Zocci dice gives you a more gradual increase. Using two dice (like 2d8) makes no sense as it gives you a symmetrical distribution of numbers with low probability tails.
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Re: Dice...

Post by Dreamslinger » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:00 am

Purchasing all of the new (and not cheap) dice was a turn off for me until I realized I could just use a dice roller app instead.
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Re: Dice...

Post by finarvyn » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:29 am

Treebore wrote:Do you explain why you have to have the special dice somewhere? Because unless you give me solid mathematical reasons why no other "standard" dice types can do the job all your odd ball dice are going to be a HUGE turn off with me.
It's a design feature. Why did OD&D decide to use those strange "polyhedral" dice instead of just six-siders? Using a smaller die type limits the number range more.

For example, suppose you have a character whose action dice are d20,d14. You have two actions (attacks, spells, picking locks, or whatever) but have to decide which action gets the d20 roll and which gets the d14. Sure, you could design the game where you put in a negative modifier instead of modifying the dice type, but that's not what Goodman Games wanted to do.

Bottom line is that other games chose one approach, DCC chose another. It's one feature that makes DCC a unique game and not just another clone of someone else's game.

Does that help any?
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Re: Dice...

Post by kataskicana » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:50 am

It is not like the dice set will cost $1000. I ordered 2 of each dice I'd need (I skipped d3s and d5s) and it was about the same price as a useless hardback add in for any other RPG and will be enough for my group to use.

DCC isn't planning on having 20 'core books' you need to buy... so the cost of the book plus a set of dice is probably less than the initial purchase of 4e books, and you are done.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Hamel™ » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:53 am

Stainless wrote:the main stated turn-offs for the game are; the dice, the 0-level character funnel, the dictatorial tone of the writing and the heavy reliance on tables. Sadly, I expect all of these will have serious impacts on sales.
Is character funnel a turn off?

Man, this is not a game for daisies: there's nothing better than a bunch of L0 characters trying to survive a bigger danger like a Huge Worm or Wyvern.

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Stainless
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Re: Dice...

Post by Stainless » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:06 am

Hamel™ wrote:
Stainless wrote:the main stated turn-offs for the game are; the dice, the 0-level character funnel, the dictatorial tone of the writing and the heavy reliance on tables. Sadly, I expect all of these will have serious impacts on sales.
Is character funnel a turn off?

Man, this is not a game for daisies: there's nothing better than a bunch of L0 characters trying to survive a bigger danger like a Huge Worm or Wyvern.
If you read what people are writing on forums, it's a HUGE turn off for them. For me, I'm not so sure. It actually seems a bit of a gimmick to me and gives the game a bit of a beer-and-pretzels feel to it. I can seem many simply ignoring this dictate just like character death in Traveller character creation has been since it was first published (however people STILL complain about it and use it as a reason for not liking Traveller).
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Re: Dice...

Post by finarvyn » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:14 am

Stainless wrote:the main stated turn-offs for the game are; the dice, the 0-level character funnel, the dictatorial tone of the writing and the heavy reliance on tables. Sadly, I expect all of these will have serious impacts on sales.
Interesting. Your list doesn't seem to match the majority opinions I've seen thus far.

* Some have expressed the dice as a turn-off, but in general they don't seem to count it as that big of a deal.

* I haven't heard a single playtester express dis-satisfaction with the character funnel. Maybe they don't like it but just haven't said anything?

* Most comments I've heard about the writing have been very positive. You're the first to use the term "dictatorial".

* The tables are a concern to some, but there are a few threads full of nice alternative ideas that may work themselves into the final version. I'm not ready to count this as a design drawback.
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Re: Dice...

Post by smathis » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:19 am

Stainless wrote:If you read what people are writing on forums, it's a HUGE turn off for them. For me, I'm not so sure. It actually seems a bit of a gimmick to me and gives the game a bit of a beer-and-pretzels feel to it. I can seem many simply ignoring this dictate just like character death in Traveller character creation has been since it was first published (however people STILL complain about it and use it as a reason for not liking Traveller).
Considering the long-standing popularity of games like Paranoia, it's hard for me to believe the character funnel will be a bigger turn-off than the dice. In fact, I'd say DCC starts out as a fantasy Paranoia game and then settles into a Warhammer/OD&D game at 1st level.

Besides people who didn't want to play zero level could skip it and just start at level 1. Again, hard to see how it could be a huge turn-off. I suspect there's a handful of people out in the internets who don't like it and are just being noisy about it.

I know far more people who liked that a character could die in character creation in Traveller than dislike it, at least as a funny quirk of a system they played decades ago. But the majority of gamers out there don't even know that was possible unless they've heard about it second hand. And the majority of those guys just draw conclusions based on what they think about hearing about that second hand.

I also don't get "dictatorial" writing. I like the tone of DCC just fine. I'd say it's casual and engaging. Dictatorial? Have they read Gygax? Maybe there's a couple of humorless schmoes out there who read the "thou shalts" and took it the wrong way.

The internet is a magnifying glass for all complaints. I get the dice complaint. I totally see how that's a hindrance. But zero-level and dictatorial tone? Wha?

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Re: Dice...

Post by Sizzaxe » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:34 am

I hate to be "dictatorial" myself here, but I'm thinking that some people just don't "get" this game. But that's to be expected and maybe even desirable. I mean Joseph himself said the target audience here was himself. I dare say that's how Joseph has approached most of Goodman Games product. And it sold and sold pretty darn well. Sure he is interested in platests and getting feedback, but some of the feedback seems to show a certain lack of understanding in what he and his team was trying to achieve.

DCC sets some precedents in game design that haven't been done before. And being generally based on a d20 model they are easy to understand, intuitive, as well as out of the box. DCC also hearkens back to a spirit that permeated early swords and sorcery gaming. The tables, the dice, the high pc death rate. They are all part of the spirit of the game.

And 'dictatorial tone? I don't see it as any more dictatorial than a sergeant telling his men most of them are gonna die in this battle; or an MIT physics professor telling his first year students 90% of them are going to flunk out; or a wizened mage warning a wannabe apprentice that magic drives 60% of mages mad and drags the other 60% to hell. See, it's tone man it's not authoritarian autocracy.

Take the Proclamation for instance on page 4. I _love_ it!! Some might be insulted by it; fine, then take your old familiar polys and go play a game where you know you have a better chance of living. This is for big boy gamers who are looking for a certain something, something furious, magical, dark, devilish and dangerous, something bigger than themselves. He also does something else in this colorful section of flavor text. He outlines what you can expect. That's the whole reason for it. Not just to scare people off, but to let them know where this game is coming from.

I for one love it.

Now, I'm okay with legitimate critiques on game design. Even on issues that I like and don't necessarily want changed like the % based thieves abilities. That's a good point that cuts a fine line between preserving tone and consistent design.

But I'm getting a wee bit pooped on the "we just don't like it and we're not gonna buy it" feedback. I mean for most of us the playtests haven't even started. Give it a try first and then see what you think. Otherwise your just expressing an opinion.

Sorry for being so "dictatorial" :roll:

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Re: Dice...

Post by kataskicana » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:43 am

+3d30!

I have been holding back from writing the rant against the ranters for days!

I don't 'get' Live-Action Sailor Moon... so I don't play or post in their forums to tell them I don't get it and won't buy it.

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Re: Dice...

Post by bholmes4 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:53 am

The Zocchi dice, character funnel etc. may cull some sales, this is true. What I think is often over-looked and forgotten is that these sorts of flavourful ideas also add to sales as well. Maybe initial sales drop due to the Zocchi dice but they also add others like me that have their interest piqued by the flavour. The potential payoff comes in the years to follow when customers are hopefully still raving about DCC because this is actually unique, flavourful and fun (thanks to risky ideas like the Zocchi dice). Instead of yet-another bland d20 game that is quickly forgotten by all but the biggest fan boys, this could be a game that continues to sell well down the road.

I know when I saw the brave stance they were taking this game I had to pre-order and support it. Even if it turned out a flop I wanted to encourage this sort of thing (not just another ho-hum, tries to cater-to-all but fails product).

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Re: Dice...

Post by Hamel™ » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:19 am

Stainless wrote:If you read what people are writing on forums, it's a HUGE turn off for them.
I am kinda smelling the scent of minmaxers coming from those forums. :mrgreen:

IMHO that's the real truth behind all, because people doesn't like to roll serial stats: freedom of thought above all, but a fair amount of them is surely that kind of player. :roll:

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Re: Dice...

Post by Stainless » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:21 am

Hey, don't shoot the messenger! I like the DCC RPG so far. :D

It's just the impression I'm getting from forums posts like those at theRPGsite;

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=20241

Granted, that particular forum tends to be no-holds-barred and revels in savaging all and sundary. I also agree that Internet forums do tend to be skewed to trolls (but also fan boys, so maybe it evens itself out. :mrgreen: )
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Re: Dice...

Post by Stainless » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:24 am

smathis wrote:Dictatorial? Have they read Gygax? Maybe there's a couple of humorless schmoes out there who read the "thou shalts" and took it the wrong way.
Interesting you should say that because someone on theRPGsite forum in fact speculated that the tone was trying to emulate Gygax or be a humerous parody of it.
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Re: Dice...

Post by jmucchiello » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:44 am

To see the beauty of the Zocchi dice, just turn to page 32 and look at the ATTACK DIE column of the warrior. Then read the Mighty Deeds of Action description on page 33. Then turn to pages 73-77 and see the beauty that is the Attack die interacting with MDoA.

If that doesn't help, turn to page 79 and see how Zocchi dice are use to make two-weapon fighting different from other D&D-esque RPGs.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Sizzaxe » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:17 am

jmucchiello wrote:To see the beauty of the Zocchi dice, just turn to page 32 and look at the ATTACK DIE column of the warrior. Then read the Mighty Deeds of Action description on page 33. Then turn to pages 73-77 and see the beauty that is the Attack die interacting with MDoA.

If that doesn't help, turn to page 79 and see how Zocchi dice are use to make two-weapon fighting different from other D&D-esque RPGs.
That is exactly the DCC mechanic I'm talking about. It's new, it's out of the box and it's music to my ears. Or my die-rolling fingers as the case may be. :wink:

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Re: Dice...

Post by Jeffrey » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:49 am

Did we mention cause they're kewl? :P

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Re: Dice...

Post by talmor » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:22 am

Also, they're very pretty...and neat!

And LOOK--they roll funny!

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Re: Dice...

Post by QuentinTheTroll » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:16 pm

Come to think of it, why does this game use a d20?

Why can't it skip that gimmick and just generate random numbers between 0 and 20 the old-fashioned way, by rolling a common six sided die four times, and subtracting 4?

Heck, switch to five dice and call it Yahtzee! Yahtzee sells way better than an RPG will anyway.

I bet sales go through the roof if you change it to Yahtzee!

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Re: Dice...

Post by Treebore » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:29 pm

Well, I am definitely not a min/maxer or a "daisy". I play/run Hackmaster, my "kills" in that game for my last 7 month run was 12 PC's. I just don't want to have to go out and buy a bunch of over priced dice "just because".

I can see why you need to roll just a single dice, rolling two gives you results much more in the "average", or median, range. Since your using the D14, or D16, or whatever as a kind of "back up" to a straight D120 roll, I can see that. Guess I'll have to think on it, and see the price tag. If I have to pay $35 for the RPG and then another $20 or so on the "official" dice, then I will likely pass.
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Re: Dice...

Post by QuentinTheTroll » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:18 pm

Treebore wrote:Well, I am definitely not a min/maxer or a "daisy". I play/run Hackmaster, my "kills" in that game for my last 7 month run was 12 PC's. I just don't want to have to go out and buy a bunch of over priced dice "just because".

I can see why you need to roll just a single dice, rolling two gives you results much more in the "average", or median, range. Since your using the D14, or D16, or whatever as a kind of "back up" to a straight D120 roll, I can see that. Guess I'll have to think on it, and see the price tag. If I have to pay $35 for the RPG and then another $20 or so on the "official" dice, then I will likely pass.
I really don't think the inclusion of Zocchi dice is "just because," anymore than the d20, d10, d12 or d4 developed in the game "just because."

[Note I didn't include the d8. I still hate that guy. I don't know if this is physically true, but in my experience, the d8 seems like, by far, the least "random" random generator of all possible dice. I still remember with particular disdain a peach d8 I had that earned the nickname "good old number 5" because that's what it rolled about 50% of the time.]

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Re: Dice...

Post by jmucchiello » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:24 pm

QuentinTheTroll wrote:Come to think of it, why does this game use a d20?

Why can't it skip that gimmick and just generate random numbers between 0 and 20 the old-fashioned way, by rolling a common six sided die four times, and subtracting 4?

Heck, switch to five dice and call it Yahtzee! Yahtzee sells way better than an RPG will anyway.

I bet sales go through the roof if you change it to Yahtzee!
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