what to do with problem players

[beermotor]

Does anyone have any insight or suggestions for dealing with problem players? By "problem," I mean just the sort of general malaise / lack of creativity that comes of playing MMORPGs for years and 3.x or 4E D&D. I've got a player in my game that constantly refers to his character as the "tank" (he's playing a dwarf), and always acts generally, i.e. "I search the room." "Is there any gear here for a tank?" "Is that something my <x> would want?" He never does anything with mighty deeds other than maybe a trip or a head shot, rarely a "knock this guy into that guy" type of maneuver. He's a fine guy he's just a terrible (IMO) player. I'm not sure how to break him of his bad habits, and would like some help or suggestions for things to try to do so. My problem with it is, it kind of saps my enjoyment of the game some... I mean, I run the game firstly for my players to have fun, so I feel pulled in the sort of less imaginative direction. It also tends to degrade the creativity around the table. I think some of the other players tend to drift away from interesting or creative role playing and towards the bad habits of MMORPGs or 3.x/4E (except for one guy, who's never played MMORPGs or 4E, just a bit of 3.x with me).

Like I said, I want to lead the group in a good direction. I'd wanted to TPK them so they could start over again, since we've been playing for a while and now have a better handle on the rules and mechanics, but nobody was into just willingly starting over, heh. Anyone know of any treatises written by the experienced on this topic?

[Rostranor]

You could start giving away XP or temporary luck to players who are being creative or descriptive with their actions. This may get your other player involved. He may not care or get into it either way but it may cause the other players to step up and avoid the malaise.

As an example I gave out a free ep point to every character that has a painted representative figure of them at the table. That motivated two of my players to try painting for the first time. One to buy a fig at a game store and one player to blow it off. Overall I would count it a success.

In another instance I asked a player to describe the manifestation of his spell to the group and he got really into it. This caused one of the other players playing an elf to do the same and they then proceeded to get into a one up spell casting spell description contest. They were each burning stats to get higher results to explain their more elaborate manifestations it was fun.

In both cases a little reward or competition may spark the effect your looking for or get the other players more active.

[beermotor]

Yeah, obviously the malaise had affected me to the point where I wasn't even thinking of trying to reward good behavior. They're getting close to level 3, too. Maybe I'll sick some XP-draining un-dead on them and reward good arrpee... kill three birds with one stone.

[Colin]

Like Rostranor I'd go for rewarding well-described and imaginative play with on the spot awards too, such as the odd XP bonus, Luck poit, or a +1 bonus to the task being described. Also, if they've never seen em, recommend some high-action movies such as various Hong Kong flicks, swashbuckler movies, etc. that feature cool moves, and so on. Also, have them clash with a levelled Fighter or somesuch and actively demonstrate in-play the cool moves such a Fighter can use *against* them. They'll likely soon perk up once a villanois Fighter disarms a few, knocks one into the other spoiling a spell being cast, etc.

Colin

[Gameogre]

Boy do I ever have experience in this category!

First off realize that getting irked by player behavior isn't unusual for many DM's. Try to not let it bother you. Some people come to the game with less skill sets than others and we all make do with what we have. Instead of looking at it negativity try and see the positive side. You get to work some role playing and teaching muscles!

First off you need to set up a system our of game that you are comfortable with to help players get into character more and actually role play. Make sure its a positive system and not one designed to punish(carrot instead of stick).

When someone says "I search the room" Let them roll whatever you have worked out for standard search checks. However,if someone role plays searching in the room out(I'm lifting up the bed and looking under it,I'm going through all the sheets and even pulling the pillowcase off) Either give them a BONUS to the check or...no roll needed and they just find whatever someone would find if they searched there.( We hardly ever roll for such things,but then we play it out).

Players will jump on the difference pretty fast.

Heck you can even do the same for combat."I attack the mob and rolled a 14" gets no bonus but "Hargun chucks one of his knives at the fleeing orc and yells out Booyaa" Gets a bonus!

I often will tell a player who just rolled a great roll and who tells me "Hit with a 19!" It didn't hit unless you can impress me with the description! Then I normally get a awesome long description worthy of a movie scene!

As far as the whole Tank issue goes,for the most part just realize that is the background he is coming from. Until he gets a lot more experiences under his belt that's the tool set he is working with. At most my advice on that is don't reward it. If he says "Any Tank gear in this stuff" Reply "Nope" Then proceed to tell another player about the awesome shiny plate mail the bag of coins is partially under.

Also make sure the npc's and monsters do not fall into the same habits. Have those orcs scream and make faces and jump up into the air with the great blade held overhead to chop pc's in half! Have them show emotion! Plead,howl and be overcome with rage!

None of my players ever changed for the better with even well meaning criticism. Lead them with carrots and snickers bars instead!

Last but not least,realize that some players may never embrace your play style and that's fine. Like I said its all about skill sets and what people find fun. If they don't eventually improve either find a way to me ok with it or move on with different people. I never have the luxury of doing that because I play with tons of family,but I hear that as a last ditch thing it does work well.

[Gameogre]

One of my sons (16 at the time) had a really bad habit of cheating. He would misread dice rolls,forget to add damage and even read adventures we were playing in between sessions. At first I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt but eventually it just became too much of a issue. Everyone else at the table started to really complain and ask that we not include him in the games.

Well I couldn't bring myself to do that but at the same time I wasn't going to play the catch me if you can game with him either.He didn't respond well to ANY of my positive attempts to change the situation.

So I had him drop dead from a heart attack every time I even thought he might be cheating. I was merciless. Once he died during character creation because he rolled near max gold for starting wealth.

Eventually he stopped cheating but it took a surprising long time for it to really sink in. Meanwhile the group had a fun time of it watching him die spectacular deaths.

That's about the only time I took a negative approach with our rpg's and that was after trying everything to take care of the issue before hand.

If he had been just some random player,I would have given him the boot.

[beermotor]

Good advice all around.

How do y'all specifically handle spellcasters in DCC? I have a ton of "I cast XYZ." It's so, so boring (and 3.x/4E canon). Maybe I'll start making the spell checks at -2 for "I cast XYZ" and normal for more descriptive? Or shift that up by 2... +2 for descriptive casting versus the "I cast XYZ."

I don't want it to be tedious. But the laying on of hands by clerics in particular kind of annoys me... I mean, healing should be a miraculous, magical thing. None of us can do it, for example!

So how would you all suggest I start working this stuff in? Something like ...

Player: "I cast XYZ," or "I'll heal A," or "I'll attack B."
Me: "That's fine, and you can roll normally, or you can describe what you're doing and get a +2 to your roll, or an extra XP or two if you survive this encounter, your choice."

[beermotor]

One of my sons (16 at the time) had a really bad habit of cheating. He would misread dice rolls....

If he had been just some random player,I would have given him the boot.

I once was given 2 free levels in a 2nd Ed. AD&D game when I attacked a player in-game who was a pretty notorious cheater (she rolled dice in a little open box thing and always grabbed them up quickly after announcing "17!" or whatever). She packed up and left after my dwarf with a mace of disruption attacked her character that had willingly turned into a vampire and was then plaguing the party semi-secretly. She never came back.

It's an amusing story I guess but I'm less proud of it now that I'm older, in that I'd rather lead folks to change, than beat them into submission. Still, sometimes a beating (or five) is necessary.

[themightyeroc]

Good advice all around.

How do y'all specifically handle spellcasters in DCC? I have a ton of "I cast XYZ." It's so, so boring (and 3.x/4E canon). Maybe I'll start making the spell checks at -2 for "I cast XYZ" and normal for more descriptive? Or shift that up by 2... +2 for descriptive casting versus the "I cast XYZ."

I don't want it to be tedious. But the laying on of hands by clerics in particular kind of annoys me... I mean, healing should be a miraculous, magical thing. None of us can do it, for example!

So how would you all suggest I start working this stuff in? Something like ...

Player: "I cast XYZ," or "I'll heal A," or "I'll attack B."
Me: "That's fine, and you can roll normally, or you can describe what you're doing and get a +2 to your roll, or an extra XP or two if you survive this encounter, your choice."

Oh man, the Cleric healing battery is driving me over the edge too! It seems almost too easy to do. I already hit them up with the "Your God is NOT going to heal any other opposing or adjacent alignments in the party unless you convert them." We have only had one session since that talk so I'll see how it goes. Otherwise you got it. I do the same, I reward good description with a bonus or a luck point if the roll is a success. I also asked the Wizard to rename all his spells, magic missile is now "Alexanders Arcing Axes" and the manifestation is always glowing blue hand axe(s).

[Raven_Crowking]

Role-play the deity. Point blank, tell the cleric that he can sense the god's displeasure that the miracle is being squandered on those who do not tithe or worship.

Likewise, it is better to give bonuses for description than penalties for lack thereof. Basically, whatever behaviour you want players to engage in, the game universe rewards.

(Most of the time, anyway. )

[Gameogre]

What I want to do is this.

Cleric spells are white magic and White Wizards cast them. Just make Cleric Magic a kinder gentler type of magic and do away with Clerics all together.

That doesn't mean do away with Priests or deities but Priests are more likely to be Warriors ect..

I frankly find Clerics too powerful,too anti-swords and sorcery and too boring. In the books I want my games to emulate the heroes didn't have a holy man following behind them healing there wounds and woes. If anything Holy Men resided in far off monasteries or on the edge of civilization and lead pretty abstinent lives.

If I make it another type of Magic I get to taunt them with real power and dark magics and try and lure them in!

Thieves are the same way though. I want to let everyone be able to steal. Thief as a class seems kinda lame to me. Let Warriors use light armor and put there higher scores in dex and slink around in the dark if that's what they want to do.

My idea of the perfect swords and sorcery DCC rpg game would only have two class's I guess. Everyone would be either Warriors or Wizards! (Cause none humans would go bye bye as well!)

Maybe one day I will run this idea! It's so counter to my Tolkien wanna be typical game,it might just be fun.

[GnomeBoy]

There is a lot in this thread that I would echo.

You can try to bring problem players around, but ultimately they are either on the same page with you, or they are not.

Play the way you'd like, reward what fits your sense of fun, and let them decide how they want to participate.

Or, give him an Apparatus of Kwalish to drive around...

[beermotor]

Hah... an apparatus fueled by dwarf blood.

[Rostranor]

I make the spell caster describe the spell using his unique manifestation of it and then describe how it damages the creature. I have found that if I jsut lean back and say "describe it to us" and then follow it up with "cool man" we all enjoy it better. I lucked out because I have one player who really likes to describe his character cast a spell and gets into the manifestationsof the spells. Since they are mostly first level the spell manifestions are becoming "signature" moves because they are limited. So giving the talking stick to the players and having them take charge of the story is really working for me. It was slow at first, but now the other players are getting into it and realize that part of the epic story events are theirs to narrate as well.

As for Cleric spells I just started jinxing the cleric when he would roll or get a bad roll. I would say things like, wow your god has the power to make his presence known, or oh crap your dice are a conduit for the displeasure of your god. AS dumb as it sounds that coupled with some deity disapproval rolls worked towards getting the cleric serious about his faith. Throw in some game mechanic stuff for example one time I said, "no your deity disapproval did not go down over night". "Wait, why?" me: "DUH its deity disapproval your doing something to piss your god off figure it out."

[cjoepar]

Some good suggestions above.

But I would say to consider that being a "tank" might just be what the player wants to be. I mean, we all play for the ability to assume some specific role and maybe he just wants to play the role of a "tank" and you are getting distracted by it because other, less imaginative, games use that term. I'd lead him into the role of tank, and let him enjoy that role if that's what he wants. But tell him he's no tank because he's not describing his actions like a tank character. Wound his fragile tank ego and let him try to grow his ability to role play naturally.

I have a thought for you too, about encouraging more Mighty Deeds, and more descriptive behaviour during combat in general. Give him a magic weapon whose only power is that it adds to his Deed die and does a couple extra points of damage when he describes his attacks in detail. He's begging for tank gear, give him tank gear that only works when he adjusts his play-style to fit your game culture better.

[finarvyn]

One GM I encountered recently had a jar of M&Ms at the table, and they were designed to be rewards. They could reward good play, a particularly witty comment, making an awesome die roll in a critical situation, or whatever. Anyone at the table could reward anyone else with an M&M, not just the GM handing out a reward. You might be able to try something like that to get the "tank" to think more like a dwarf.

[Ogrepuppy]

As far as the whole Tank issue goes,for the most part just realize that is the background he is coming from. Until he gets a lot more experiences under his belt that's the tool set he is working with. At most my advice on that is don't reward it. If he says "Any Tank gear in this stuff" Reply "Nope" Then proceed to tell another player about the awesome shiny plate mail the bag of coins is partially under.

Most of the advice is sound, but jeez, this sounds very "stickish" and not too "carroty". Being a dick is being a dick, no matter the intentions behind it.

[Ogrepuppy]

Player: "I cast XYZ," or "I'll heal A," or "I'll attack B."
Me: "That's fine, and you can roll normally, or you can describe what you're doing and get a +2 to your roll, or an extra XP or two if you survive this encounter, your choice."

That's a great way of softening the blow. Nicely handled!

[Gameogre]

As far as the whole Tank issue goes,for the most part just realize that is the background he is coming from. Until he gets a lot more experiences under his belt that's the tool set he is working with. At most my advice on that is don't reward it. If he says "Any Tank gear in this stuff" Reply "Nope" Then proceed to tell another player about the awesome shiny plate mail the bag of coins is partially under.

Most of the advice is sound, but jeez, this sounds very "stickish" and not too "carroty". Being a dick is being a dick, no matter the intentions behind it.

Yeah you might be right. Still the player would get with the picture real fast I would think. Probably a better idea to just tell the player what he/she is looking at and let them make those decisions on what is Tank gear anyway.

[henis]

Great to find this post, have a friend much like the one being discussed an old MMO player, has to relate everything to the MMO "We need a healer", "I'm a tank", etc. But, he has a problem with rules, for example we've been playing 3.X on and off for about 3 years now and after maybe a month of not playing he'll ask that same question "what do I roll again", "a d20", "What's that". Now the rest of us in the group understand that he's not good at math, so we're patient with him and help him out, but the thing is that I'm thinking that he would like to play DCC because of the lack of rules, I play a 3.X game with him but run a DCC game of my own with the rest of the group.
The thing is that whenever I bring it up, nice and slowly, easing him in to the fact it's rules lite and more about what you WANT TO DO vs. what skill and what my class HAS TO DO, as related to an MMO he turns into Frankenstein's monster in front of fire "EERRRRRR, something new!" "ERRRR different!" It's gets frustrating because I've been attempting to run DCC on and off for a year with some success the rest of the players like it and really enjoy their characters, however it doesn't last long because "it's not the full group" and we wind up right back at playing the other Dm's 3.X game "we need a healer, you play a good cleric, play a healer" *sigh* "ok".
It gets to be a sort of "well I don't think he'll like it so better stick to the other game, but DCC is fun though" attitude, the problem is we really don't have anyone else to play with in our area and the rest of our friends are a little less interested in playing, I understand that everyone has their own game and whatnot, but it doesn't hurt to try something new right?

[Gameogre]

It seems like your friend struggles with the game he is already playing and doesn't like the thought of learning a whole different game system.

You and I might see it as more fun and easier but I think we both come at it from far different view points than does your friend.

My advice is this. Ask him to come hang out with you guys while you are playing. NOT PLAY.

Just to chill out and listen and chat during breaks. No frigging pressure at all.

See how that turns out. Maybe he will watch and after a bit ask YOU to play.

Maybe he will be happy he isn't playing and will instead have a good time listening to his friends getting killed!

Either way DCC RPG will not be a unknown entity at that point.

However,all that said,nothing sucks for a new guy more than being in a game campaign and everyone wanting to switch rule systems to another (to you) Bizarre system you don't know. If your buddy doesn't end up wanting to switch I think you should at least let him finish off a campaign. Let him see that how a game ends is sometimes the best part!

Hope that helped.


Edited to say" Ok,well LOTS of things suck more than being new and having a game switch,but it still sucks for the new guy!"

[Tortog]

I think I've tried all of these options at some point, and they all work to varying degrees. I would add a cautionary note to the practice of rewarding players with XP for good Role Play. This was my practice until a few years ago. In the early systems where you needed millions of XP to get to the top of the level chart RP awards (& XP for treasure) make sense. However, when players realize that they can get XP for such low risk behavior, it can quickly become a problem in groups with highly competitive players it can get out of control fast. Especially when you consider the disparity in level of RP ability between the players and the subjective nature of what constitutes 'good RP' and will there be a sliding scale for level of performance...

I have deliberately avoided using this tactic in the DCCRPG rule set because the average XP award/ player/ encounter/ is between 0 & 2, with a suggested maximum of 4; though I've been known to go as high as six if they've survived something particularly nasty or done something really impressive. Even tiny rewards, applied consistently enough, could radically alter the power advancement of the players.

One of the things I have found to be true over the years, is that players (particularly older ones) can be fairly reserved, and may not have any desire to RP at all. I think I understand the behavior that you're talking about with the MMO reference (I'm not sure what this stands for), but in my experience it was usually just the equivalent of players calling "dibs" on a particular class, or race within the group dynamic. Usually based on players desire 'not' to have to get stuck playing a class they don't like; but I have seen players that get really cranky when you tell them that one or more classes won't get represented. I've even had to intercede between players fighting over their class choices... then turn on me for not providing the necessary class (usually cleric) to balance out the party. Like it was all some kind of equation or something. When forced into a group w/o cleric, this person refused to do anything risky; since he was playing the only thief things got ugly fast. Cranky player didn't like my solution of letting wizards cast slightly less powerful healing magic (3.x game; cure light wounds etc, but with d6's instead of d8's).

I eventually abandoned game, and went looking for new one, but I had that option.

Lately I've been working under the idea that many people are too shy to do any serious RP (especially in a public game shop) so I take the tactic of using funny voices and body language to portray the NPC's. This does several things: but most importantly, if I'm acting the fool and drawing off all the funny looks then the wall flowers can step away from shadows a bit. Though this tactic can also have the exact opposite effect... it depends on the players level of reticence. Sometimes they just stop showing up.

Though the game shop I usually go to also has 21+ section with a beer and wine license... that usually loosens folks up enough. Though this may have other radical and adverse consequences on the game.

My idea of the perfect swords and sorcery DCC rpg game would only have two class's I guess. Everyone would be either Warriors or Wizards! (Cause none humans would go bye bye as well!)

I love the wisdom in your posts, but the emphasized text is where we diverge. I've had similar thoughts, though I was wondering what it would be like if everyone chose their race (even choosing mutant or making something up) and then have them start as a Warrior of that race. Then they could add in the powers of a Wizard if they have enough INT, or supplement their income via skulduggery and a life lived in the shadows and gutters for those with the Agility to stay alive. Cleric, Druid, Mystic classes would exist, and their services could be bought via conversion or cash donation to the cause; but they wouldn't be available to players. I'd play the deities as 'meddlesome' and 'omniscient'... if the party does something that pleases a particular god, then they might wake up the next day with their wounds healed, or find that they are strangely fortunate in the hunt. The reverse would also be true... do something that angers a god at your own peril!