"Saving throw" based creatures

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dunbruha
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"Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dunbruha »

We have played 2 sessions using the "save" option. It has worked pretty well. Here are a couple of creatures that the party encountered, that I adapted to the "save" mechanic. Suggestion/coments welcome!

Ghoul
TY: Level 2 (average die-rank: D6)
TR: Melee: Bite -- 1D6 + 2
Arcana: Fear (D4)—save vs. Willpower; Paralyzing Bite (2D4)—save vs. Endurance
EA: None
HP: 12 (primary threat rank x2 due to undead nature).
BP: D2
Notes: Like all undead, ghouls are horrible to encounter. A ghoul uses its Fear ability on all creatures within 30 feet. Creatures who fail the Willpower save are at -2 to Potential Harm and -2 to all Willpower saves for a number of rounds equal to the difference in the saving rolls. A ghoul uses its Paralyzing Bite on a single creature. Creatures who fail the Endurance save are paralyzed for a number of rounds equal to the difference in the saving rolls.

Stirge
TY: Level 1 (average die-rank: D6)
TR: Melee: Proboscis -- 1D2 + 1.
Special: Blood Drain (1D4)—save vs. Endurance
EA: None
HP: 16 (includes +10 for Evade ADP)
BP: D4
Notes: Stirges attempt to drain the blood of their target. Creatures who fail the Endurance save lose Toughness equal to the difference in the saving rolls.
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dancross »

I really like those. :!:

Would you repost your average die-rank by level table? :?:

Have you considered using my variant with Resilience and the option for PCs, NPCs, and monsters with special powers to "force" a save, thereby bypassing Resilience? Maybe?
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dunbruha »

Here's my chart, for what it's worth:

___Level_______Max_Char_____Average_____________“Best”
(Hit_Dice)________Points______die_rank____________die_rank
____1_____________15_________1D6______________1D12
____2_____________17_________1D6______________1D12+1D4
____3_____________20_________1D8______________1D12+1D6
____4_____________22_________1D8______________1D12+1D8
____5_____________26_________1D10_____________1D12+1D10
____6_____________30_________1D10_____________1D12+1D12
____7_____________35_________1D12_____________1D12+1D12+1D4
____8_____________40_________1D12_____________1D12+1D12+1D6
____9_____________45_________1D12+1D4_________1D12+1D12+1D8
___10_____________50_________1D12+1D4_________1D12+1D12+1D10
___11_____________60_________1D12+1D6_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___12_____________65_________1D12+1D8_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___13_____________70_________1D12+1D8_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___14_____________80_________1D12+1D10________1D12+1D12+1D12
___15_____________90_________1D12+1D12________1D12+1D12+1D12

Level is character level or number of Hit Dice.
Max character points is the maximum number of CP that a ERP character can have at that level.
Average die rank is what I estimated a random die rank would be, based on dividing the number of max CP by 10 Abilities.
"Best" die rank is what I estimated that a character's "best" ability would be at that level (melee creature=Melee; spellcasting creature=Arcana, etc.).

Obviously, there are estimations, and should be subject to GM judgement. For creatures with special powers, I reduced the "best" die ranks, as they seemed too high (see the ghoul and stirge).

I haven't tried using the "force" save option yet--we are still working on the basics...
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dancross »

dunbruha wrote:Here's my chart, for what it's worth:

___Level_______Max_Char_____Average_____________“Best”
(Hit_Dice)________Points______die_rank____________die_rank
____1_____________15_________1D6______________1D12
____2_____________17_________1D6______________1D12+1D4
____3_____________20_________1D8______________1D12+1D6
____4_____________22_________1D8______________1D12+1D8
____5_____________26_________1D10_____________1D12+1D10
____6_____________30_________1D10_____________1D12+1D12
____7_____________35_________1D12_____________1D12+1D12+1D4
____8_____________40_________1D12_____________1D12+1D12+1D6
____9_____________45_________1D12+1D4_________1D12+1D12+1D8
___10_____________50_________1D12+1D4_________1D12+1D12+1D10
___11_____________60_________1D12+1D6_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___12_____________65_________1D12+1D8_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___13_____________70_________1D12+1D8_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___14_____________80_________1D12+1D10________1D12+1D12+1D12
___15_____________90_________1D12+1D12________1D12+1D12+1D12

Level is character level or number of Hit Dice.
Max character points is the maximum number of CP that a ERP character can have at that level.
Average die rank is what I estimated a random die rank would be, based on dividing the number of max CP by 10 Abilities.
"Best" die rank is what I estimated that a character's "best" ability would be at that level (melee creature=Melee; spellcasting creature=Arcana, etc.).

Obviously, there are estimations, and should be subject to GM judgement. For creatures with special powers, I reduced the "best" die ranks, as they seemed too high (see the ghoul and stirge).

I haven't tried using the "force" save option yet--we are still working on the basics...
This is useful. More useful, in fact, than the existing "challenge score" system, which I suspect nobody needs or really wants.

Also, characters start at 30 CPs, then get level +2 every level. What am I missing with your max CP list?
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dunbruha »

dancross wrote:Also, characters start at 30 CPs, then get level +2 every level. What am I missing with your max CP list?
Um... I'm not sure. I thought I got it from a table that you posted, but now I can't remember... I'll do some checking.
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dunbruha »

dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:Also, characters start at 30 CPs, then get level +2 every level. What am I missing with your max CP list?
Um... I'm not sure. I thought I got it from a table that you posted, but now I can't remember... I'll do some checking.
Now I remember. The column is not max CP, but total number of die rank increases. So at 2 CP per die rank increase, it works (15 ranks at 1st level = 30 CP).

Here is the modified table:

___Level_________Total_____Average_____________“Best”
(Hit_Dice)_______die_ranks___die_rank____________die_rank
____1_____________15_________1D6______________1D12
____2_____________17_________1D6______________1D12+1D4
____3_____________20_________1D8______________1D12+1D6
____4_____________22_________1D8______________1D12+1D8
____5_____________26_________1D10_____________1D12+1D10
____6_____________30_________1D10_____________1D12+1D12
____7_____________35_________1D12_____________1D12+1D12+1D4
____8_____________40_________1D12_____________1D12+1D12+1D6
____9_____________45_________1D12+1D4_________1D12+1D12+1D8
___10_____________50_________1D12+1D4_________1D12+1D12+1D10
___11_____________60_________1D12+1D6_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___12_____________65_________1D12+1D8_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___13_____________70_________1D12+1D8_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___14_____________80_________1D12+1D10________1D12+1D12+1D12
___15_____________90_________1D12+1D12________1D12+1D12+1D12

Level is character level or number of Hit Dice.
Total die ranks is the maximum number of die rank increases that a ERP character can have at that level.
Average die rank is what I estimated a random die rank would be, based on dividing the number of max CP by 10 Abilities.
"Best" die rank is what I estimated that a character's "best" ability would be at that level (melee creature=Melee; spellcasting creature=Arcana, etc.).
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dancross »

dunbruha wrote:
dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:Also, characters start at 30 CPs, then get level +2 every level. What am I missing with your max CP list?
Um... I'm not sure. I thought I got it from a table that you posted, but now I can't remember... I'll do some checking.
Now I remember. The column is not max CP, but total number of die rank increases. So at 2 CP per die rank increase, it works (15 ranks at 1st level = 30 CP).

Here is the modified table:

___Level_________Total_____Average_____________“Best”
(Hit_Dice)_______die_ranks___die_rank____________die_rank
____1_____________15_________1D6______________1D12
____2_____________17_________1D6______________1D12+1D4
____3_____________20_________1D8______________1D12+1D6
____4_____________22_________1D8______________1D12+1D8
____5_____________26_________1D10_____________1D12+1D10
____6_____________30_________1D10_____________1D12+1D12
____7_____________35_________1D12_____________1D12+1D12+1D4
____8_____________40_________1D12_____________1D12+1D12+1D6
____9_____________45_________1D12+1D4_________1D12+1D12+1D8
___10_____________50_________1D12+1D4_________1D12+1D12+1D10
___11_____________60_________1D12+1D6_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___12_____________65_________1D12+1D8_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___13_____________70_________1D12+1D8_________1D12+1D12+1D12
___14_____________80_________1D12+1D10________1D12+1D12+1D12
___15_____________90_________1D12+1D12________1D12+1D12+1D12

Level is character level or number of Hit Dice.
Total die ranks is the maximum number of die rank increases that a ERP character can have at that level.
Average die rank is what I estimated a random die rank would be, based on dividing the number of max CP by 10 Abilities.
"Best" die rank is what I estimated that a character's "best" ability would be at that level (melee creature=Melee; spellcasting creature=Arcana, etc.).
Righto! I'd forgotten, but these days it's amazing if I can remember what I had for breakfast :lol:
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dunbruha »

Here's another one, for this Friday's session. Comments welcome:

Wererat
TY: Level 2 (average die-rank: 1D6)
TR: Melee: Bite -- 1D6 + 2, or with weapon (Melee: 1D6+2)
Arcana: Curse of Lycanthropy (1D8)—save vs. Endurance
EA: None
HP: 24 (primary threat rank x4 due to legendary nature).
BP: D4
Notes: A creature that is bitten by a wererat must make an Endurance save. Creatures who fail the Endurance save contract the Curse of Lycanthropy, and will become a wererat in 28 days, unless a Cure Disease* spell is cast on the creature. Silver weapons do full dmage against wererats, other weapons only do half damage.

*I know there is no "Cure Disease" spell--I'll have to make one up...
dancross
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dancross »

This looks good. You said using saves worked "pretty well" in your last session. Could you be more specific? What were the comments from your players?
dunbruha wrote:Here's another one, for this Friday's session. Comments welcome:

Wererat
TY: Level 2 (average die-rank: 1D6)
TR: Melee: Bite -- 1D6 + 2, or with weapon (Melee: 1D6+2)
Arcana: Curse of Lycanthropy (1D8)—save vs. Endurance
EA: None
HP: 24 (primary threat rank x4 due to legendary nature).
BP: D4
Notes: A creature that is bitten by a wererat must make an Endurance save. Creatures who fail the Endurance save contract the Curse of Lycanthropy, and will become a wererat in 28 days, unless a Cure Disease* spell is cast on the creature. Silver weapons do full dmage against wererats, other weapons only do half damage.

*I know there is no "Cure Disease" spell--I'll have to make one up...
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dunbruha »

dancross wrote:This looks good. You said using saves worked "pretty well" in your last session. Could you be more specific? What were the comments from your players?
Played one more session with the save mechanic. I thought it went well. The players thought that they ran out of SP too soon (because they spend SP, but then some of them are negated by the save). But I'm not sure that this wouldn't be similar with Resilience: they would spend a lot of SP just to reduce Resilience to zero.

But either way, it seems to me that spellcasters are underpowered compared to fighters. The PC with melee D12 > Swords D8 > Shortsword D4 hands out a boatload of PH each round, while the spellcasters need to spend lots of SP to bypass the D6 or D8 of Endurance or Willpower to get any Toughness damage to go through (or to reduce Resilience). True, some of the fighters PH is soaked by ADP, but for regular creatures, they just have HP so it seems no different than direct Toughness damage from spells.

So, maybe more SP??
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dancross »

dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:This looks good. You said using saves worked "pretty well" in your last session. Could you be more specific? What were the comments from your players?
Played one more session with the save mechanic. I thought it went well. The players thought that they ran out of SP too soon (because they spend SP, but then some of them are negated by the save). But I'm not sure that this wouldn't be similar with Resilience: they would spend a lot of SP just to reduce Resilience to zero.

But either way, it seems to me that spellcasters are underpowered compared to fighters. The PC with melee D12 > Swords D8 > Shortsword D4 hands out a boatload of PH each round, while the spellcasters need to spend lots of SP to bypass the D6 or D8 of Endurance or Willpower to get any Toughness damage to go through (or to reduce Resilience). True, some of the fighters PH is soaked by ADP, but for regular creatures, they just have HP so it seems no different than direct Toughness damage from spells.

So, maybe more SP??
Are you doubling SP (arcanum tree x2)? They should.

Also, I'd reintroduce Resilience and implement the "forced save" optional rule. That way a spellcaster can blast through Resilience, which is sometimes much faster, or "force" an opposed roll if he feels the target may have a lot of resistance. Also, if you re-introduced Resilience, your players could use the optional rule of spending Resilience to pump points into an action!

I like the idea of saves an an option, something that attempts to bypass the Resilience DP, but not as a total replacement and the only method.
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dunbruha »

dancross wrote:Are you doubling SP (arcanum tree x2)? They should.
??? No, we were not, just going by the sum of Arcanum as listed on p.37. Hadn't heard of doubling SP--that definitely would have helped!
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Re: "Saving throw" based creatures

Post by dancross »

dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:Are you doubling SP (arcanum tree x2)? They should.
??? No, we were not, just going by the sum of Arcanum as listed on p.37. Hadn't heard of doubling SP--that definitely would have helped!
Yep, I'm doubling SP in the revised rules. Also, don't forget that spellcasters can dip into Resilience to cast spells (that was part of the origional rules), which is riskier, but fun if they knock themselves out casting fireballs...and that's another reason to bring back Resilience, while keeping the Saving Throw option.
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