Initiative questions

[mythfish]

The second paragraph on page 25 starts with the sentence "Each creature may take one action during each battle phase." In each phase? Or should it read "each round"?

Random initiative: Can only players and full-fledged NPCs use this option? I'm assuming so, but I'm not sure if the sentence refers to a (Full-Fledged) (NPC or creature), or if it refers to a (Full-Fledged NPC) or (creature). In any case, if you have Reflexes d4, is there really any reason you wouldn't want to use this option? Odds are good you'll be going earlier than you normally would.

[dancross]

The second paragraph on page 25 starts with the sentence "Each creature may take one action during each battle phase." In each phase? Or should it read "each round"?

Random initiative: Can only players and full-fledged NPCs use this option? I'm assuming so, but I'm not sure if the sentence refers to a (Full-Fledged) (NPC or creature), or if it refers to a (Full-Fledged NPC) or (creature). In any case, if you have Reflexes d4, is there really any reason you wouldn't want to use this option? Odds are good you'll be going earlier than you normally would.

Question 1: Each round in general. Or "each creature may take one action during its respective battle phase (as determined by Reflexes Die-Rank). Sometimes creatures have multiple attacks, and some characters have "extra attack" advantage, so I didn't want to write "one action during each battle round", because that's not always true.

Question 2: Right, only full-fledged creatures (whether you call them NPCs or monsters matters not) or player characters can use this option. I agree with the observation about D4 phase...and other than acting last in the resultant phase, it's not a bad option. Some players preferred random initiative, so both systems were merged, and it never hurt anything.

[mythfish]

Question 1: Each round in general. Or "each creature may take one action during its respective battle phase (as determined by Reflexes Die-Rank). Sometimes creatures have multiple attacks, and some characters have "extra attack" advantage, so I didn't want to write "one action during each battle round", because that's not always true.

Gotcha. The way it's written made it sound like creatures got an action EVERY phase, but I didn't think it worked that way.

[StormPatriarch]

The second paragraph on page 25 starts with the sentence "Each creature may take one action during each battle phase." In each phase? Or should it read "each round"?

Random initiative: Can only players and full-fledged NPCs use this option? I'm assuming so, but I'm not sure if the sentence refers to a (Full-Fledged) (NPC or creature), or if it refers to a (Full-Fledged NPC) or (creature). In any case, if you have Reflexes d4, is there really any reason you wouldn't want to use this option? Odds are good you'll be going earlier than you normally would.

Question 1: Each round in general. Or "each creature may take one action during its respective battle phase (as determined by Reflexes Die-Rank). Sometimes creatures have multiple attacks, and some characters have "extra attack" advantage, so I didn't want to write "one action during each battle round", because that's not always true.

Question 2: Right, only full-fledged creatures (whether you call them NPCs or monsters matters not) or player characters can use this option. I agree with the observation about D4 phase...and other than acting last in the resultant phase, it's not a bad option. Some players preferred random initiative, so both systems were merged, and it never hurt anything.

I read this and believe its a good merge...Keeps those of us that are success challenged in the game ( Can't roll a good one if I tried!) yet lets the ones that feel lucky have their shot too...

[dunbruha]

I have gotten to the iniative section, and I am having a little trouble understanding Table 3.1. What is the "Random Roll Result" column for? I understand how the reaction time is calculated (Reflexes basic die rank + weapon speed + magic bonus), but I don't get the Random Roll column.

Also, why do some ranged weapons (crossbows, bows) have "n/a" weapon initiative bonus, and others (axe, dart, etc.) have a bonus?

Any explanations would be appreciated. Thanks.

[dancross]

I have gotten to the iniative section, and I am having a little trouble understanding Table 3.1. What is the "Random Roll Result" column for? I understand how the reaction time is calculated (Reflexes basic die rank + weapon speed + magic bonus), but I don't get the Random Roll column.

Also, why do some ranged weapons (crossbows, bows) have "n/a" weapon initiative bonus, and others (axe, dart, etc.) have a bonus?

Any explanations would be appreciated. Thanks.

The random roll result is an option for a character with a low battle phase to act sooner. However, it disallows weapon speed modifiers, does not allow "first action" like other heroes in the same phase (he acts last), and for characters above a D6 may actually result in a lower phase. It's probably better just to raise one's Reflexes rank, but I wanted to include the option.

I figured ranged weapons had the initiative bonus sort of "built in", just by being ranged. The chart is therefore inconsistent in reasoning by adding initiative bonuses to the thrown weapons. I'd nix those initative bonuses.

[dunbruha]

The random roll result is an option for a character with a low battle phase to act sooner. However, it disallows weapon speed modifiers, does not allow "first action" like other heroes in the same phase (he acts last), and for characters above a D6 may actually result in a lower phase. It's probably better just to raise one's Reflexes rank, but I wanted to include the option.

OK, I get it now. Thanks.

The whole iniative system seems really complicated to me. Of course I haven't actually played yet, so maybe it is smoother once you get used to it, but...

Have you considered a simpler system?:
1. All PCs and Full-Fledged NPCs roll Reflex (including Iniative Specialization and Mastery) + Weapon Speed + Magic Bonus.
2. All other creatures use their BP value.
3. Actions go in order from high to low. A combatant can ready/hold its action until a lower value.
4. Ties are treated as simultaneous attacks (using the rules on p 25).

This system incorporates a random element, while still rewarding taking ranks in Reflexes and using a faster weapon. What do you see as the drawbacks to this?

I figured ranged weapons had the initiative bonus sort of "built in", just by being ranged. The chart is therefore inconsistent in reasoning by adding initiative bonuses to the thrown weapons. I'd nix those initative bonuses.

I think that ranged weapons should go sooner than meelee weapons--they ALL should have a iniative bonus.

[dancross]

The whole iniative system seems really complicated to me. Of course I haven't actually played yet, so maybe it is smoother once you get used to it, but...

The initiative system could have been expressed in easier terms. For instance:

Combat happens in rounds, and each round consists of five battle phases (or more in some instances of *really* fast or *really* slow creatures). Those battle phases are linked to a character's Reflexes or a monster's Battle Phase, not including specializations or masteries of any kind (although those can apply within a single battle phase).
In each phase the PCs usually act before opponents.

If desired, the GM may allow for a contest of Reflexes between two creatures acting in the same phase. It is under these circumstances that specializations in Reflexes can come into play, to aid in the opposing challenge roll.

Weapons and Augment effects can add to the effective Reflexes score. So if one has a D6 in Reflexes, but the weapon wielded provides a +2 to initiative, the character acts in the D8 phase (D6+2).

A character who wishes to act out of of his normal phase can roll randomly and see what fate gives him, but in so doing loses any weapon bonus.

Have you considered a simpler system?:
1. All PCs and Full-Fledged NPCs roll Reflex (including Iniative Specialization and Mastery) + Weapon Speed + Magic Bonus.
2. All other creatures use their BP value.
3. Actions go in order from high to low. A combatant can ready/hold its action until a lower value.
4. Ties are treated as simultaneous attacks (using the rules on p 25).

There is no reason this wouldn't work, and would be a good option for intense battles with only a few combatants.

However, I think the rank based phase option is really fast, and works especially well when dealing with lots of fodder. Check out the Quickstart Guide for the battle charts and you'll see why this is (it is now available from eldritchrpg downloads section).

This system incorporates a random element, while still rewarding taking ranks in Reflexes and using a faster weapon. What do you see as the drawbacks to this?

Only one...mass battle would be slowed. BUT it would otherwise work just fine.

I figured ranged weapons had the initiative bonus sort of "built in", just by being ranged. The chart is therefore inconsistent in reasoning by adding initiative bonuses to the thrown weapons. I'd nix those initiative bonuses.

I think that ranged weapons should go sooner than meelee weapons--they ALL should have a initiative bonus.[/quote]

They do allow for first strike in the same phase if there's any distance between the one holding the missile weapon and his target...perhaps rather than initiative bonuses they should have phase bonuses?

[dunbruha]

There is no reason this wouldn't work, and would be a good option for intense battles with only a few combatants.
However, I think the rank based phase option is really fast, and works especially well when dealing with lots of fodder. Check out the Quickstart Guide for the battle charts and you'll see why this is (it is now available from eldritchrpg downloads section).

I will.

They do allow for first strike in the same phase if there's any distance between the one holding the missile weapon and his target

I missed this. Where is it in the book?

...perhaps rather than initiative bonuses they should have phase bonuses?

Yes, either a phase bonus or an init bonus.

[dancross]

I missed this. Where is it in the book?

It isn't. In most combat phases the heroes act before enemies, ranged weapons or not. So, if a PC has a ranged weapon he'll act before his foe 99% of the time in the same phase (remember, I don't mean round). It could come into play if a contest of initiative is allowed between PC and NPC in the same phase. As an aside, it is stated in the book that an enemy trying to close the distance for an attack can only move so many feet per phase*. This may lower the phase in which that creature can attack by default. I'll have to make a note of that for future updates.

For now use the feet per phase movement rules to judge whether somebody with a ranged weapon can shoot a foe before it closes in. Taking that into consideration, even if guesstimating the distance, should do the trick. Say a monster with claws acts at rank D10, but needs to close in for the kill. That means any hero with a ranged weapon will be able to shoot the monster before it gets to act. See?

*Maximum movement in a round for most creatures is equal to Speed ability or Base Movement Die-Rank for monsters (See Opponent Development), multiplied by 10. That is the number of feet the creature may move in a round and still be able to act in some other fashion. A character may double the movement rate and not engage in other actions.
A rank of D6 thus means a character can move (6x10) 60 feet in a round and still be able to act in some other fashion. A character may double this rate and not take any other actions. The maximum distance per battle phase is Movement divided by five. For example, a hero with D4 in Speed can move a maximum of 40 feet in a round, or run 80 feet and take no other actions. This means she can move 8 feet per phase, or 16 feet per phase running.

[dunbruha]

For now use the feet per phase movement rules to judge whether somebody with a ranged weapon can shoot a foe before it closes in. Taking that into consideration, even if guesstimating the distance, should do the trick. Say a monster with claws acts at rank D10, but needs to close in for the kill. That means any hero with a ranged weapon will be able to shoot the monster before it gets to act. See?

Yes, this makes sense. But what about when the monster has the ranged weapon, and it is the PC that is closing in to attack? The PC always goes first, but the monster has the ranged weapon. I would think that the monster should get to go first...

The above discussion is about combatants in the same phase. But there is another issue with the init bonus. Say that two foes have equal Reflexes Ability. One has a long sword (weapon init bonus = +2), and one has a long bow (weapon init bonus = 0). In this situation, the swordsman will get to act in a higher phase, and potentially (if he is near enough) close the distance to the archer and attack before the archer can shoot him. It seems to me that the ranged weapon should have a higher init bonus than the melee weapon, so that the ranged weapons will go before the melee weapon (assuming equal Reflex score).

Does this make any sense?

[dancross]

The above discussion is about combatants in the same phase. But there is another issue with the init bonus. Say that two foes have equal Reflexes Ability. One has a long sword (weapon init bonus = +2), and one has a long bow (weapon init bonus = 0). In this situation, the swordsman will get to act in a higher phase, and potentially (if he is near enough) close the distance to the archer and attack before the archer can shoot him. It seems to me that the ranged weapon should have a higher init bonus than the melee weapon, so that the ranged weapons will go before the melee weapon (assuming equal Reflex score).

Does this make any sense?

It does make sense. How about this...Optional Rule: I'm now toying with the idea of missile weapons going first, in order of Reflexes rank, and then Melee weapons, again in order of Reflexes rank. In such a case you'd be counting down through the typical five phases twice. Inititive bonuses would work as normal in the melee actions countdown. Anybody using a ranged weapon at point-blank range, or while otherwise engaged in melee provokes a free attack upon himself. Movement would take place in the second set of phases. So that would look like:

[begin round]

Missile Weapon and Ranged Spells Actions (count down through...D12, D8, D10, D6, D4).
Melee Weapon and Close Range Spell Actions (count down through...D12, D8, D10, D6, D4).

[end round]

Whaddya think?

[dunbruha]

Missile Weapon and Ranged Spells Actions (count down through...D12, D8, D10, D6, D4).
Melee Weapon and Close Range Spell Actions (count down through...D12, D8, D10, D6, D4).

This would work, but I think it could be confusing to go through the phases twice each round. Why not just increase the bonus on ranged weapons (maybe +3 or +4 for thrown weapons, and +4 or +5 for crossbows and bows)?

Also, I'm not sure what to think about the ranged spells. An argument could be made that they might be slower to get off than a missle weapon (because of casting time).

[dancross]

Missile Weapon and Ranged Spells Actions (count down through...D12, D8, D10, D6, D4).
Melee Weapon and Close Range Spell Actions (count down through...D12, D8, D10, D6, D4).

This would work, but I think it could be confusing to go through the phases twice each round. Why not just increase the bonus on ranged weapons (maybe +3 or +4 for thrown weapons, and +4 or +5 for crossbows and bows)?

Also, I'm not sure what to think about the ranged spells. An argument could be made that they might be slower to get off than a missile weapon (because of casting time).

Drat, too many ways of doing things! This happens in D&D too. Another poster suggested I eliminate initiative bonuses altogether, due to the oddity of having somebody swinging a sword faster than another's simple movement, even if the one moving were to do so at a higher phase. So I've been pondering that. Yes, we could add +4 to +6 for ranged weapons, giving them that distinct advantage, but certainly not up to +8 (if somebodies Reflexes are only at D4, can they really react and fire as fast as a Legolas? heh).

I think you could increase the bonus on ranged weapons (from zero in many cases), and that would be a perfectly legit way of doing things, it may work better with a system of initiative that is more traditional, as you posted a while back (everybody roll Reflexes, add modifiers, and see what happens).

I sorta like my two-part phase countdown. Or...you COULD just eliminate all of that and use the sub-phase order rules alone, but modified for ranged weapons. Then it would run somewhat like Basic D&D did...:

In short, I wanted to present several useful sub-systems to fit with various preferences and styles of play. The ones in the book were sort of an amalgam of various ideas and turned the rounds very fast in actual play.

[dunbruha]

In short, I wanted to present several useful sub-systems to fit with various preferences and styles of play. The ones in the book were sort of an amalgam of various ideas and turned the rounds very fast in actual play.

It's nice to have options. It seems like initiative is one of the most-often house-ruled things in any game.

Here is my modified system (this would work with or without bonuses to ranged weapons):
1. All PCs and Full-Fledged NPCs roll Reflex (including Iniative Specialization and Mastery) + Weapon Speed + Magic Bonus.
2. All other creatures use their BP value.
3. Actions go in order from high to low. A combatant can ready/hold its action until a lower value.
4. In case of a tie, ranged weapons go first. Otherwise, ties are treated as simultaneous attacks (using the rules on p 25).

[dancross]

In short, I wanted to present several useful sub-systems to fit with various preferences and styles of play. The ones in the book were sort of an amalgam of various ideas and turned the rounds very fast in actual play.

It's nice to have options. It seems like initiative is one of the most-often house-ruled things in any game.

Here is my modified system (this would work with or without bonuses to ranged weapons):
1. All PCs and Full-Fledged NPCs roll Reflex (including Iniative Specialization and Mastery) + Weapon Speed + Magic Bonus.
2. All other creatures use their BP value.
3. Actions go in order from high to low. A combatant can ready/hold its action until a lower value.
4. In case of a tie, ranged weapons go first. Otherwise, ties are treated as simultaneous attacks (using the rules on p 25).

Looks good. Since in this case you'd be comparing initiative dice results, a monster's BP value could simply be expressed as a number rather than a die-rank phase: 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16 or 20.

[dunbruha]

Looks good. Since in this case you'd be comparing initiative dice results, a monster's BP value could simply be expressed as a number rather than a die-rank phase: 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16 or 20.

Yep, that's what I would do.

I am leaning towards eliminating all of the weapon init bonuses, rather than adding ones to the ranged weapons. It seems to be a simpler system, and, as was pointed out earlier, it avoids the "running while holding a weapon is faster than running without one" dilemma, as well as the "switching weapons after initiative is determined" problem. I realize eliminating init bonuses takes away some of the benefits of specialization in a weapon, but the higher Potential Harm, Potential harm bonus, and the Defense Bonus will still be there.

[dancross]

Looks good. Since in this case you'd be comparing initiative dice results, a monster's BP value could simply be expressed as a number rather than a die-rank phase: 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16 or 20.

Yep, that's what I would do.

I am leaning towards eliminating all of the weapon init bonuses, rather than adding ones to the ranged weapons. It seems to be a simpler system, and, as was pointed out earlier, it avoids the "running while holding a weapon is faster than running without one" dilemma, as well as the "switching weapons after initiative is determined" problem. I realize eliminating init bonuses takes away some of the benefits of specialization in a weapon, but the higher Potential Harm, Potential harm bonus, and the Defense Bonus will still be there.

Ze Group mentioned the same thing. However, I'd say you only get the init bonus of a melee weapon if you stand your ground (move max 5'). An easy rule would be that if movement is required, you lose the bonus. Makes sense and is simple. Also, if you switch weapons, you lose the phase benefit and drop down to your regular phase. If you switch weapons after taking your normal action, then it wouldn't matter anyway.