Design Discussion

[Harley Stroh]

Thread for design discussion of the 2008 Gen Con tournament.

[Jengenritz]

You gents mentioned in the email that you were looking for a "low level" adventure. Did you have a specific range in mind (1-3, 4-6, 7-9)?

I guess if we're looking for the Free RPG Day adventure to be a prequel, then we don't mean levels 1-3.

[goodmangames]

4E will have been available for about two months already, and supposedly you level up even faster in 4E, so people will have experience as high as 6th level or so, I would estimate. We could easily do something in that level range, but not higher.

[Jengenritz]

(repeated from an email)

As far as an established "brand name" villain, we've got 2 options: franchises or familiar names.

FRANCHISES
The people with at least 2 modules about them already are:

Kyleth the Witch Queen
The Stormbringer family*
The Rat King

* Sure, the Stormbringers are giants, and in 3.5 that might be a bit much
for a mid-level party, but
1. we don't know how the CRs or whatever-they'll-be-called will shake down,
2. it's not like we can't Nerf them if we need to, and
3. it's the tournament, so who cares?

Of those three choices, I think I like the Rat King best, but I'm a sucker for lycanthropy in general, and wererats in specific. I like Harley's idea about the transformation into were-critters being the reason the party has a clock on the tournament.

Ultimately, franchises kinda turn me off. It's like Drizzt or Elminster being
in every book or videogame about the Forgotten Realms. The exception
being you actually get to kill off the franchise...you really, really get to nail
the Rat King (and his family, and his ghost, no coming back!).

FAMILIAR NAMES
If we were looking for bad guys referenced in other DCCs, we've got quite a few. Chalychia would fit in this batch. This list is far from comprehensive:

Blackspine, evil psuedodragon who almost certainly escapes
Srihoz, don't think we actually fight him in the module, but he might be too tough
Tsathzar Rho, the extradimensional weirdo could easily have survived his "death"
Cadixtat, we only fought his hand
The Ripper, he was never actually caught in that module, just the redcap
Jakob the Leper, cursed pirate captain, not actually encountered in "Fate of the Vigilant"
Tarkhan Kurzog, the Scourge himself would be tough, but any of his generals could be appropriate
The Mountain King, we've got 3 modules about just him, but the tournament could be something special

I like this idea because we've got a ton of characters we could develop
here.

[Jengenritz]

(carried over from email)

Going back to Joseph's Greek idea...that's where good monsters come from.
Scylla, Geryon, the Stymphalian birds (!!!), titans, chimera, manticores,
krakens, hydra, sphinx, griffons, gorgons (medusa), evil giant bulls
(gorgons), centaurs and all the fey, Thracian horses (nighmares or
madhorns), minotaur, Nemean (dire) lions, lots of giants and witches
(hags!)...all great stuff.

I mean, tell me we can't write something that goes Greek? Hell yes we can!
Crap, we could even make it like the legend of The Labyrinth...

...the divine-touched cyclops Sypkos has been owning the countryside, and each year he demands that his vassal towns send sacrifices to his lair,
which he releases into his Labyrinth of Death beneath his villa.

This year the heroes have vowed to put an end to the cyclops once and for all, and substitute themselves for the sacrifice, thus gaining entrance to
the Sypkos's home to kill him.

Oh man...their weapons and gear are stashed INSIDE the Labyrinth by turncoat servants who serve Sypkos...they can't get in with more than a hidden dagger (or other light weapon), basic gear, and no armor, and they've got a (VERY) partial map of the first level and a complete map of third level from their allies!

Inside the first level of the Labyrinth they fight classic Greek-y monsters,
overcome traps, that sort of thing. The second level is either another floor
of Labyrinth, the basement of the villa, or both. In round 3 they fight
their way through the villa and eventually face Sypkos. Round 3 IS ONLY
three rooms...by taking this path the heroes avoid most of the cyclops's
fortified villa and his troops. We could even have reinforcements arrive
during the final battle at set intervals...making it a bigass fight.

Greek gods are fickle (Chaotic neutral), so the players hope that their
actions will be sufficiently heroic to gather the attention of the gods and
get them to revoke their protection of Sypkos. Or maybe we ignore this
sentence.

So it's like Labyrinth meets Enter the Dragon, kinda.

I'm still kinda rolling with this...

...the final level is three rooms: the one they start in, the one to get to
the cyclops, and the cyclops.

4E is supposed to have people moving around, right? Stuff for all involved
to do, right?

Final Encounter:

- Sypkos and a few schmucks in the villa's central courtyard (think
Italian/Spanish house).
- Reinforcements arrive from 3-4 other entrances every few rounds
- Heroes can fight the cyclops, or they can hit the switch that drops the
portcullis that seals one entrance, or they can smash the slender pillar the
supports the lintel that then collapses and blocks another entrance, or they
can kick the barrel that sends caltrops (or boiling oil) down one passageway

I'm just saying, this sounds fun.

[Jengenritz]

(then Joseph and Harley said...)

JOSEPH

I'm liking this. A Greek style tournament does have a "classic D&D" vibe in
a sense, because so much of the early D&D pantheon of monsters, heroes, and deities was based around this mish-mash of various mythologies. I like the aspect of the PCs somehow appealing to the gods, too. Normally the significance of these sorts of D&D tasks gets lost in the obscurity of the fake D&D gods ("I have to bath in oil to appease who? Boccob? who is he again?")... but EVERYBODY knows who Zeus is, and thanks to Clash of the Titans we all know the visuals as well, and everybody would "get it" if we had some tasks to appease the fickle gods. Or even if we hinted strongly that the gods would be watching, and then there are points-based decisions in the dungeon where the players (for example) restore a beheaded statue of Zeus or instead rush to the next room.

As for the cyclops himself, let's make sure every team gets a chance to
encounter some aspect of the bad guy... maybe his ground troops are also
one-eyed creatures of some kind. Without getting into game terms (because who knows what they'll be), they could have a half-cyclops template, or be "cyclops-kin" or something.

I also like the idea of a final battle with streams of reinforcements,
especially if the reinforcements keep challenging the PCs with new tactics.
First some beasties... then some undead... then some flyers... whatever they may be.

HARLEY

I like all the ideas suggested so far (fickle & observant gods;
opportunity for lots of tactics; variable baddies) but I think we
need to shy away from the actual Zeus. Maybe we include a primer on
DCC gods in the player handouts, but adding the Greek pantheon to DCC
world is a bad idea in my opinion.

We can rub right up against the mythology (maybe our cyclops is the
half-divine son of a titan or something, maybe he has an Achilles
heel) but when you name names it rips people out of their D&D world.

JOSEPH

That sounds fine to me. And now: motion to move the discussion to the
forums? There we can start hammering out more specifics...

(...and here we are)

[arlanni]

Adrian,

Thanks for copy/pasting the e-mails so everything is in one place. The Greek theme is sounding better and better. One night in December I think we need to meet at a diner, eat some pie, and continue developing this concept. Meanwhile, we get an extra year to plan the Devil-Lich's return!

Chris

[goodmangames]

OK, let's come up with a timeline to make sure we stay on track.

Question #1: How many authors involved? I'm getting the impression that you want a smaller pool.

Question #2: When to complete a first draft? In the past it's been around April. With fewer authors, and each person writing independently, this could come sooner -- perhaps by start of March?

Question #3: With that in mind, when to have basic level concepts? I'd like to at least have an outline and general breakdown of rooms per level BEFORE the holidays -- it makes a huge difference to have that done so work can start after the holidays.

What do you think?

[Harley Stroh]

The smaller pool of authors makes since. Last year, Adrian and I spent a ridiculous amount of time re-writing encounters to bring them up to par. If we used the regular author pool (Chris, Adrian, Joseph, Ferguson, Maffei, Harley) it would make the entire process much moe streamlined.

(And that's 6 authors for 6 encounters, pretty much what we would need for an "explorable" round, right?)

Brainstorming possible levels around the greek theme:

Mazes: Cool in theory, bitch in play, UNLESS the maze is dynamic and interesting, ala Monte's DCC. We don't want people complaining about, "I played in the tournament and never found my way out of the area 1-1 maze in 4 hours"

... sorry. I have to go make dinner for a thanksgiving get-together, but I have more to post here about islands and water.

//H

[Harley Stroh]

Had a great conversation with Adrian this afternoon that made me reconsider my stance on the labyrinth/maze. If we give players a sweet map handout at the start of round 1, I think we could come up with something that worked.

What would be REALLY cool is some of sort of map that evolved as the PCs discovered clues in the labyrinth. For instance a map that could be read/pieced together is a couple different ways. The way the players put together the map is informed by the clues they uncover.

Anyhow, in terms of Rounds we have potentially:

Round 1: Labyrinth of the Cyclops

Round 2: ???

Round 3: Endgame w/ the Cyclops

//H

[goodmangames]

The key encounters could be based on scenes from classic Greek myth. You could work in a medusa, some harpies, a minotaur, etc.

For some reason I envision some degree of island-hopping -- open water and figuring out ways to get from one island to the next -- maybe one round could be a gigantic open lake with "encounters" that are separate islands? Solving each island reveals a way to get to the next?

One other thing... the last DCC mini produced was supposed to be Toth-Ror, villainous minotaur. One of the problems with Jason Wiebe was that he continually produced miniatures that were far too large to easily cast commercially (witness the Castellan figure he produced). He did the same with Toth-Ror, and also included a cyclops head -- which now may actually come in handy as a prop for the bad guy at the end. This was the image he sent me:

[arlanni]

Hey guys,

I too like the maze idea. As long as its not too complicated, I think it will work fine for level 1. I also like the concept of a minotaur or cyclops as our bad guy. Why not go with the Minotaur as the bad guy at the end of round 1 (the center of the maze), and the Cyclops as the bad guy at the end of round 3. The minis look great, and would make fine props!

I call dibs on the Medusa encounter! I certainly think there needs to be a chimera in there somewhere, and perhaps a hydra. I hope to review some greek literature the next few weeks to generate ideas and encounter concepts.

I also agree, lets stick with a smaller author pool.

If we go with the maze idea for round 1, it would not be too difficult to generate three different entrances, although this will entail additional desining on our part. Perhaps we should hold off on this until we see the 4E rules, to determine if we have time to add this wrinkle.

Chris

[Harley Stroh]

OMG.

Those minis RULE. Please, please, please let me buy one.

====

Okay. Island hopping lends to the idea of "tests of the Gods."

Something along the lines of ... the God of Death is behind on his tally. Of late, the forces of Good have been defeating too many villains. Death's tally declares that 4 Heroes must die!

A Good deity intervenes on the PCs' behalf and offers a gambit. In order to escape their fates, the PCs must suceed on 3 Impossible Tasks, each set on a different island:

Defeat the Maze of Minotaur

Win the Heart of the Medusa (maybe the name of a gem guarded by the female Greek monsters?)

Return with the Head of the Cyclops (half-divine child of a titan)

(Apart from the maze, I'm not attached to these ideas. Just random brainstorming.)

We seem pretty set on the maze. Since I know so clearly the reasons why I hate mazes, I'd be happy to work up the maze/handout mechanic.

//H

[Harley Stroh]

BTW, I ripped off the idea of "Death is behind on his count, so you heroes die," from Mouser and Fafhrd.

//H

[goodmangames]

The island hopping could be a level of its own. A series of islands with defined connections (bridges or something) is essentially a flowchart, which could substitute for a dungeon level.

I like the tests of the gods. Perhaps this adventure starts out as a simple quest but the adventurers learn that by having the guts to stand up to the cyclops terror, they have actually entered into a divine test. Kind of like how the Greek myths always blurred the line between mortal and divine -- we think of the modern God as being on basically another plane of existence, but the Greek gods lived on a top of a mountain they could see in the sky, and routinely came down to mate with mortals. The first 'test' could be standing up to the cyclops at all... that's round one, the maze... and in round two, they have explicit tests delivered by the gods themselves, on a series of islands. Each test applies to one character class, though of course all participate in some way. At the end of round two, they finally enter the round of the cyclops, perhaps with some boon granted to them by whichever gods they appeased in round two?

[Jengenritz]

Actually...if the cyclops is a "prequel" anyway to the tests of the gods, why not have THAT be the Free RPG Day tournament prequel module?

That makes the tournament Tests of the Gods...and now we have a title.

[goodmangames]

Cool idea! It gives a distinctive look and feel to the Free RPG Day module (ancient Greek)... opens up the possibility of releasing the final tournament as a smaller boxed set that includes the Free RPG Day adventure, the tournament adventure, the cyclops mini, and perhaps some other minis and/or maps... and gives a great identity to the tournament.

This also brings up some Clash of the Titans memories for the tournament. Remember how Perseus had to have the medusa's head in order to turn the kraken to stone? In other words, if he didn't have the prize from level 2, he couldn't complete level 3... we could design the tournament such that an item from the beginning of each round is crucial to defeating the bad guy at the end of the round, who basically can't be defeated by characters of that level unless they are clever and make use of what they're given earlier in the round.

[Jengenritz]

I swear, I do my best thinking when I'm actually trying to get to sleep.

(throughout the post, when I mention a god directly, I don't really mean that god, just an analog of them)

PREQUEL

Labyrinth and Sypkos the cyclops, just as we've described but shorter...they substitute themselves for the intended sacrifices, kill Sypkos to save their village...BUT earn the emnity of the god-parent of Sypkos, let's say Hera.

The party is then CURSED. We can work out the details later.

They are told by a sympathetic Hermes, however, that they can lift the curse by completing Three Tasks...one appealing to each of the other major gods (Poseidon, Zeus, and Hades) and currying their favor.

ROUND 1

For Poseidon, the party must recover the Helm of Arganno.

(NOT an underwater adventure)

Arganno was king of Ektrioses, an island kingdom with a powerful navy, blessed by Poseidon. Arganno, a mighty warrior, won a battle and had a great feast. At the feast he invited his entire kingdom, including Poseidon in disguise. When the priests suggested that Arganno owed his victory to the sea-god, he laughed and said it was his own strength of arms that won the day. The priests warned him, but he said to prove it he'd take any challenger in an arm-wrestling match...anyone who beats him could have his kingdom, but if he won he would take their arm.
Poseidon, in disguise, accepted and beat Arganno, then sank his island kingdom beneath the waves.
Arganno, however, had a helmet that granted wishes, and he used his LAST wish to stave off the god's full wrath. Therefore, his people didn't die, but changed (acquiring a template), and once every X years, the island rises again for X hours.
If Arganno loses the Helm, the wish is broken and Poseidon can fully claim the city.

The party learns when Ektrioses will rise again, and goes there. Round 1 begins as the island rises underneath their ship. The party has X hours to get the helm from Arganno before it sinks again.

ROUNDS 2 and 3

Are similarly themed for Zeus and Hades, although they don't necessarily have to take place in the sky or underground.

Just kinda free-rolling here, what do you think?

[Harley Stroh]

Just a friendly reminder, Harley will *not* accept Greek gods in DCC World.

If it eases getting the theme/visioning right, feel free to use the names of the Greek gods now, but when it comes to the final draft we'll be subbing in DCC gods.

//H

[Harley Stroh]

One way to get from one island to the next could be to rescue a few trapped pegasi from their captor.

Heh. Do we have a good airborn combat rules (haven't read guide to arial)? En route the PCs could be attacked by harpies. GM busts out the hex map and all of a sudden PCs are manuerving in and around spires on their pegasi, taking shots at the harpies, and trying to land amid the ruins...

//H

[goodmangames]

Maybe we should start talking DCC gods now. For purposes of a tournament and people who are unfamiliar with them, it would be best to stick to "stock" gods. "Oh yeah, he's like the god of war? OK, I get it..." What gods immediately conjure up potential quests? I like Adrian's idea -- we just need to fit it in to the world...

I like the idea of pegasi riding, but there can't be aerial combat unless it's part of the 4E SRD. The rules have to be "standard" D&D (since it's a tournament). Perhaps the connections between the islands vary -- one magic bridge, one undead boatman, and one rescued pegasi herd...

[Jengenritz]

I know this is maybe a weird idea, but what if the tournament module didn't fit into Aereth continuity?

[goodmangames]

You really like the Greek theme, huh? Interesting idea... in a similar vein, maybe it's an alternate plane, or perhaps just an alternate continent (previously unrevealed!), where the same gods are known under different names? (Which just happen to be Greek?)

[Harley Stroh]

Remember that the Free RPG adventure will need to deal with the same personages --- so we're talking about having 2 of the initial 11 4E DCCs not being set in the DCC world.

I think the "what god is this again?" can be solved with titles: "I am XXXX, God of the Sea. Have you my brother XXXX, God of the Underworld? Try a bit of his tasty pomegranate quiche. It’s the best.”

(IMO, a true GREEK adventure should be the domain of X-Crawl. Something along the lines of "My Big Fat Greek X-Crawl.")

//H,

or as my followers know me, the Frost Giant Harl, Bitch of Continuity

[Harley Stroh]

I like the idea of pegasi riding, but there can't be aerial combat unless it's part of the 4E SRD. The rules have to be "standard" D&D (since it's a tournament). Perhaps the connections between the islands vary -- one magic bridge, one undead boatman, and one rescued pegasi herd...

Good catch. I forgot about that and got all excited about an aerial chase scene.