request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

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serendipitous
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request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by serendipitous » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:40 pm

As I'm working through a good amount of DCC material right now (newbie judge here!) I wanted to make a request.

Going forward, would y'all who produce DCC art (and who don't do this already) consider bringing the gender balance to 50/50 in your artwork, and also matching the nudity/body realism in male and female images? For example: every woman who's popping out of her top and/or is not graced with pants could be balanced -- somewhere in the same book -- with a similarly-sized picture of a dude that looks like he strolled off a tawdry romance novel cover, has his secondary sexual characteristics highlighted to a similar degree, and is flashing a similar amount & type of skin.

Also, I myself would be totally grateful if each human female depicted had at least enough waistline to allow her to digest any food she has the opportunity to eat. Or mutilate the same number of men the same way -- I believe they can achieve the look if they have some ribs taken out.

Extra credit: cut the non-Hispanic white folks down to 60% to match American reality, more-or-less.

Thanks so much for your consideration.

ETA: I posted something more gracious, I hope, below. This particular post reflects my incredible sadness, frustration & anger at this stuff. Every. Single. Time. I. Open. The. D@$%ed. Book. The other one better balances this with an acknowledgment of the work the artists have done and their intentions.
Last edited by serendipitous on Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Litzen Tallister
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by Litzen Tallister » Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:35 pm

I like this request too. The more diversity that's depicted in the artwork, the more people are likely to see themselves in the game, which has all kinds of value for increasing inclusivity in the hobby.

serendipitous
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by serendipitous » Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:17 am

Litzen, thank you for your kind reply.

I think my original post may have seemed (been?) aggressive. Sigh. Not the intent; and I know that the artists work hard and I believe that they are good folk.

I'm just wishing that I could prep for my game without the art right now. I'm feeling pretty raw and just wide-open, emotionally, and am trying to build a DCC campaign b/c of my love for a friend who loves DCC.

So I'm immersing myself in DCC materials but I just don't see anybody like me in them, not in the narratives that assume male readership + male villagers, fighters, wizards, NPCs, everything; I don't see myself or my female characters in the images, though I feel like some of the male images could represent my male characters. Don't see my Latinx friends, my Asian & Indian & Black friends, not even in the same numbers I see them at the tables at the gaming store in my, frankly, crazy-white community.

Since I'm trying to build a tech-based campaign I'll need to improvise a ton anyhow and maybe when I have enough notes & enough charts of my own I can just work from those and set the books aside.

I do wish I'd started with a message of appreciation for the work done in the art. I know that my friend has really enjoyed having the books and I'm glad for his joy. He'd have enjoyed them even if they were inclusive, though. And he wouldn't have had to suffer through my wry observations (which I've stopped now that I'm judging, so as not to break immersion or muck up the experience).
"... and also: the willingness to stand firm, and also: where does one learn to stand firm? in what kind of school or university?" -- Bolano, 2666

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catseye yellow
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by catseye yellow » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:10 am

Image

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catseye yellow
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by catseye yellow » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:14 am

ps. doug got his wish.

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catseye yellow
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by catseye yellow » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:15 am

on somewhat unrelated note is there somewhere complete visual history of the band?

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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by catseye yellow » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:54 am

i've found it in gen con program guide 2017. 85, 86, 91 - 93 all feature all-girl band. also, racially diverse. no significant cheese factor (unless you like margaret weise object to somewhat bare legs).

members of the band are literally our points of projection into the game, so if you look it over> more girls than boys, racially (i hate saying racially since we are all one race except for filcher took who is halfling) diverse, different body types and styles but nothing too gratuitous.

also nice bolano quote. savage detectives and distant star are my favorite novels ever.

serendipitous
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by serendipitous » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:46 pm

:D to see your thoughts, catseye yellow!

Argument would be more convincing if the band were all-women. Girls: not the same thing. Really not. Also more convincing if the clothing standards were gender-balanced. As it stands, reminds me of an Italian scientist at an (also-Italian) seminar on inclusion of women in science: "I love women in science! I'd much rather look at them then at the men!" Made my American friend appreciate her usual academic milieu.

That said, if the copy + the rest of the art were as inclusive it would be a great step forward, agreed.

Haven't read the other Bolano work -- Distant Star looks wonderful, will engage, thanks for that too.
"... and also: the willingness to stand firm, and also: where does one learn to stand firm? in what kind of school or university?" -- Bolano, 2666

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catseye yellow
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by catseye yellow » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:11 pm

i think that this shows that dcc "iconics" are really inclusive in every possible way. and girl band as opposed to boys band. tongue in cheek witticism. you could say that shana is chaka khan and you know she is every woman.

serendipitous
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by serendipitous » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:48 am

catseye yellow wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:11 pm
i think that this shows that dcc "iconics" are really inclusive in every possible way. and girl band as opposed to boys band. tongue in cheek witticism. you could say that shana is chaka khan and you know she is every woman.
Hmmm....

Let me be sure I understand. I'm hearing two arguments here. Check me on this, if you will.

First:
  • Images of the DCC Band are inclusive regarding women and non-white persons
    The DCC Band is iconic for DCC
    Therefore, DCC materials are inclusive regarding women and non-white persons
Second:
  • Doug wishes to see an all-girl Band, or DCC fighting group
    For a man to wish to observe an all-girl fighting group is inherently a feminist and woman-inclusive stand to take
    Therefore, DCC's fulfillment of Doug's wish for an all-female Band reflects DCC's feminism and woman-inclusion
ETA: it mightn't have been clear: I assume good-will and open-mindedness -- in fact, the best of intentions -- on the part of Dungeon Crawl Classics' creators, writers and artists. Though I wish the implementation were different. And I'm sure there are smart people of good will who disagree with my analysis/perspective.
"... and also: the willingness to stand firm, and also: where does one learn to stand firm? in what kind of school or university?" -- Bolano, 2666

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catseye yellow
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by catseye yellow » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:40 am

1. DCC imagery is inclusive as proven by the band (changing group of adventurers featured on the end page of every DCC adventure). i have posted some of those images and think that you can see it for yourself. the band members are in equal measure male and female. also RE: clothing there are no chain mail bikinis or similar stuff.

2. no. feminism is something different and i don't think that either males or companies can be feminist strictly speaking. that said i sympathize with feminist goals. all woman band just shows that goodman games is company that is aware of girl gamers and their need to be represented as a part of the hobby.

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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by GnomeBoy » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:32 am

I've always taken the idea of feminism being that women should be treated equally. Anyone can subscribe to that notion, so anyone can be feminist.

But then, my understanding of the term stems from the 70s and 80s, and I have seen terms shift in their meaning without me noticing. So I may still be thinking of "late-20th Century feminism", if such a thing is different from the concept today.
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com

Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

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catseye yellow
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by catseye yellow » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:27 pm

it is not a place for discussion about implications of the theoretical feminism. academics can debate finer points. i am happy with decency and respect as far my hobby is concerned.

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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by GnomeBoy » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:19 pm

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I concur about decency and respect.
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com

Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

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catseye yellow
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by catseye yellow » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:45 am

i am sorry if i came off as somewhat brusque. it seemed to me that OP is radical feminist and i wanted to pint out that:

1. you don't have to be one to be on target with the representation of women in art.
2. i won't and can't speak for doug except that he is decent and respectful as can be seen from his art.
3. dcc as game is not feminist and it should not be. these are matters that are too complex to be incorporated 1/1 into hobby game. what it is should be completely enough: decent and respectful.

i think that history of the band and DCC iconic characters are proof of what i am writing.

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Litzen Tallister
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Re: request: 50/50 gender split in art + gender-match in realism, % body clothed

Post by Litzen Tallister » Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:39 pm

I wasn't aware of the changing composition of The Band across DCC modules, so thank you for pointing that out. However, nothing is radical about the idea of a 50/50 gender split. Population-wise, assuming similar to our own world, females outnumber males; so 50/50 is a conservative estimate. And I have no objection to Doug Kovacs' art as it's been amazing throughout the DCC books. DCC does really well in having inclusive art in comparison to most OSR game.

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