Should Goodman have their own "house" system?

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trancejeremy
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Should Goodman have their own "house" system?

Post by trancejeremy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:35 am

I'm sure they probably won't. But with the recent announcement of Pathfinder by Paizo, it seems like just about every other company that supported d20 in a big way (and are still in business) now have their own system. (Excepting Necromancer Games, which is something of an odd duck, as they are really more of a developer, not a publisher, getting other companies to actually publish and distribute their modules.)

I mean, Green Ronin has True 20. Mongoose has Conan (and they went out bought Runequest and Traveller to use as core sytems). Troll Lord has C&C. Crafty Games has Spycraft/Fantasy Craft.

I think it would be pretty cool if someday Goodman came out with their own game, call it "Dungeon Crawl Classics: The Game". If nothing else, it would be a hedge for the future if 5e is completely closed.

And perhaps a way to keep retro feeling modules alive. I know there will be DCCs for 4e (and ironically, Necromancer stuff as well), but the more I learn about 4e, the less I get the "D&D" feeling from it. And frankly, I only like "D&D" for fantasy, having grown up on it, I just associate it with fantasy. (Yeah, I know there is C&C, but while I like the idea of it, I don't like the execution very much)

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Post by moriarty777 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:57 am

Well, there are good things and bad things about all these publishers having their own 'house' systems.

The good thing is a small publisher can establish a nice little 'corner' in the market and keep it to themselves and slowly build it up. The bad thing is the more that there are, the less exposure that same game might get.

Paizo's move is a very good one IMO which was partially necessitated byWOTC's continued delays in delivering things like the GSL. In this case, Pathfinder is will be largely 3.5 with a few changes to address issues that have come up. Hopefully, this will please a large contingent of fans who were already wishing for something like this.

You're correct to point out Green Ronin and, even though they still haven't finalized a decision on 4th Ed (they are waiting till they see the GSL last I heard), they have decided to make True20 free of any licensing fees and permit anyone to publish material for it using the OGL starting in May.

The remnants of West End Games is also in the process of opening up the d6 system with it's own OGL to stimulate growth and potential. They are still working on it and, I believe a SRD to go with it.

I think though these are to continue to survive in the wake of what's already out and what's coming. The status of the gaming industry should be very interesting to watch over the next couple of years.

As for Goodman Games... they are developing/publishing a bunch of other projects so, in my mind, it's safe to say that they don't have all their eggs in one basket. I think they will do well with their present model.

M

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Post by Nahat Anoj » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:23 am

I think in some ways the Eldritch RPG is GG's personal house system. But personally, I think the most money will be made in hitching the cart to 4e. The only drawback is that WotC hasn't made the GSL available soon enough for other companies to get things made for Gencon. That's really too bad IMO - I almost wish WotC said "4e will not be an open game whatsoever" at this stage.

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Post by mythfish » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:58 am

Jonathan Moyer wrote:I think in some ways the Eldritch RPG is GG's personal house system.
That's kind of what I was thinking too. I'm just waiting to get my hands on it so I can start adapting it to other settings.
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Post by fathead » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:44 pm

Rather than produce their own seperate system (using the 3.5 OGL), I wouldn't be surprised if Goodman supports both 4E and the Paizo 3.5 offshoot.

I'll be looking at Eldritch as well, since I'm curious.
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Post by CharlieRock » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:50 pm

Etherscope, XCrawl, DragonMech, Eldritch, and Dungeoneer.
Take your pick. 8)
Roll for initiative!!!

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Post by Hamakto » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:01 am

I have been reading the DnD forums for months now. And the more I read, the less enthuastic I am about 4e DnD.

I do not have the rules, so they may of designed a fairly good game system. But somewhere along the way it seems to me that they lost the spirit of DnD.

It would probalby be quicker to list what is the same in 4e than what is different.

I took a quick look at the Pathfinder RPG on Paizo's website and it looks interesting. But I have not had a chance to go through it in depth. But at first glance, they kept the 3rd edition look and feel. I cannot comment on balance issues with their changes, but it at least looks promising.

I would help their is continued support by GG for 3.x DnD. But I will understand if there is not.
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Post by trancejeremy » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:33 pm

CharlieRock wrote:Etherscope, XCrawl, DragonMech, Eldritch, and Dungeoneer.
Take your pick. 8)
Etherscope, Xcrawl, and Dragonmech are just settings, really. Dungeoneer is based on a licensed property (the board game), which would sort of defeat the purpose.

Eldritch is its own game system, but honestly, I'm not very impressed by what I've read about it. It's exactly the sort of fantasy game system that flops hard. Generic name, unremarkable system.

I was thinking something more D&D-ish that fits with the DCC brand

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Post by Ogrepuppy » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:37 pm

Hamakto wrote:I took a quick look at the Pathfinder RPG on Paizo's website and it looks interesting. But I have not had a chance to go through it in depth. But at first glance, they kept the 3rd edition look and feel. I cannot comment on balance issues with their changes, but it at least looks promising.
I've skimmed through the PDF of the alpha version. I was pretty "meh". It's "D&D 3.75".

Many of the rules are exactly the same (naturally), as they want to retain backwards-compatability as much as possible. Paizo keeps saying they wanna streamline the clunky parts of 3.5, and while I commend (and encourage) that mode of thinking I really didn't see many changes in the ruleset that actually streamlined anything.

For example, they want grappling rules to be smoother. I was just as perplexed with their grappling "rewrite" as I was by the original.

They also attempted to pull a Star Wars Saga Edition move by combining specific skills into one lump category ("perception" instead of Listen, Move Silently, etc). I like how it was done in Saga Edition, but for some reason Paizo's version just seemed....clunky. Maybe it's my perception--kind of a "too little, too late" feeling. I've seen Saga Edition do it, and do it exceptionally well, so the feeling of "shiny and new" has lost some lustre. I'm at work & don't have the PDF here, so I'm giving you feelings and impressions rather than cold, hard facts. That'll have to do for now.

Ultimately, I hope Paizo does well (I genuinely respect Erik Mona for "saving" Dungeon and Dragon mags back in the day) but I personally have had more than enough of D&D 3.x. I hope their Beta version will be a significant improvement on the concept of "streamlining".

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Re: Paizo 3.5 offshoot

Post by joela » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:56 am

fathead wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Goodman supports both 4E and the Paizo 3.5 offshoot.
Uh, unless WotC dramatically shifts GSL, that's not going to happen. Goodman is going to be supporting 4E period.
What do you mean no?

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Re: Should Goodman have their own "house" system?

Post by ChristinaStiles » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:48 pm

Personally, I wish some of the companies who've produced 3.5 stuff would ban together to support a 3.5 version with some fixes. I'll be supporting Paizo's Pathfinder, but it isn't really what I'm talking about--just a vanilla version with grapple and a few other things fixed. Get someone like Goodman or Green Ronin to keep a 3.5 OGL PHB in the pipeline for new players to pick up and run with.

With the GSL removing the option to continue printing OGL materials, I'm hoping one of the biggies (besides Paizo) doesn't make the GSL jump and publishes something like that.
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Re: Should Goodman have their own "house" system?

Post by joela » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:22 pm

ChristinaStiles wrote:I'm hoping one of the biggies (besides Paizo) doesn't make the GSL jump and publishes something like that.
Little chance for that. Mongoose did release some sort of "Pocket" PH based off the SRD back in the past, but it now has Runequest, Traveller, and other lines to sustain it. And Green Ronin, of course, has the d20-derived True20 system.

Hmmm. Maybe this could be an opportunity for one of the smaller companies to take printing the 3.x ruleset and run with it by keeping it in print?
What do you mean no?

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Re: Should Goodman have their own "house" system?

Post by ChristinaStiles » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:44 pm

joela wrote:
ChristinaStiles wrote:I'm hoping one of the biggies (besides Paizo) doesn't make the GSL jump and publishes something like that.
Little chance for that. Mongoose did release some sort of "Pocket" PH based off the SRD back in the past, but it now has Runequest, Traveller, and other lines to sustain it. And Green Ronin, of course, has the d20-derived True20 system.

Hmmm. Maybe this could be an opportunity for one of the smaller companies to take printing the 3.x ruleset and run with it by keeping it in print?
I don't really care what Mongoose does, though I liked the Pocket PH and GM's guide.
GR has their in-house systems, certainly, but they were still considering producing 4e stuff. I think if they thought there was enough support, they might be interested in the 3.5 book. I don't see any way they can go 4e at this point without losing M&M & T20. Of course, those are enough to keep them busy.

Goodman could produce such a book and get great fan support for it. Of course, I haven't heard/seen any comments from Joseph since this news.

Since Joseph has evergreen product, the loss of the ability to keep 3.5 stuff on the market (let alone the trademark license causing him to dump product quickly) seems like it will be a real blow to him. That's gotta hurt, especially since he WANTED to do 4e business and jump on the bandwagon. It looks like Wotc really wants to kill the competition, but it's hurting its potential partners at the same time. That's bad business, IMO.

So, Joseph, if you are reading, think about keeping 3.5 Alive!
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Re: Should Goodman have their own "house" system?

Post by moriarty777 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:21 pm

ChristinaStiles wrote:I don't really care what Mongoose does, though I liked the Pocket PH and GM's guide.
GR has their in-house systems, certainly, but they were still considering producing 4e stuff. I think if they thought there was enough support, they might be interested in the 3.5 book. I don't see any way they can go 4e at this point without losing M&M & T20. Of course, those are enough to keep them busy.

Goodman could produce such a book and get great fan support for it. Of course, I haven't heard/seen any comments from Joseph since this news.

Since Joseph has evergreen product, the loss of the ability to keep 3.5 stuff on the market (let alone the trademark license causing him to dump product quickly) seems like it will be a real blow to him. That's gotta hurt, especially since he WANTED to do 4e business and jump on the bandwagon. It looks like Wotc really wants to kill the competition, but it's hurting its potential partners at the same time. That's bad business, IMO.

So, Joseph, if you are reading, think about keeping 3.5 Alive!
Well, there is nothing to say that some of these companies that were thinking of jumping to 4e need to do so immediately. It could be that a couple of companies that have a lot at stake with the older edition stick with it just a while longer and eventually go to 4e if it is as good as all that. Personally, I rather like the idea of certain companies sticking with the OGL instead of developing for the new system considering what's in the GSL.

Personally, this is just distancing me even further from the new system. I don't want anything to do with it and I'm rethinking even supporting WOTC in *any* way, shape, or form with this kind of stunt.

M

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Post by joela » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:23 pm

ChristinaStiles wrote:GR has their in-house systems, certainly, but they were still considering producing 4e stuff. I think if they thought there was enough support, they might be interested in the 3.5 book. I don't see any way they can go 4e at this point without losing M&M & T20. Of course, those are enough to keep them busy.
One option that's been suggested is for companies currently producing 3.x products to separate. You could see, for example, Green Ronin handling 4E products while a new company, "T20", handling True20 products and M&M. However, you can bet WotC will squash any such attempts. Paizo and Necromancer can get away with it because they're partners.
ChristinaStiles wrote:Goodman could produce such a book and get great fan support for it. Of course, I haven't heard/seen any comments from Joseph since this news.
He's probably still weighing his options. But GG has discontinued 3.x support for some time now and, IMO, there's really no profit to return to it. GG, like Necromancer, announced it was jumping on the 4E bandwagon and you can bet WotC will not look too kindly at companies backtracking or, worse, selling 4E products, then returning to OGL.
ChristinaStiles wrote:Since Joseph has evergreen product
What's "evergreen"?
ChristinaStiles wrote: It looks like Wotc really wants to kill the competition
. Yup.
What do you mean no?

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Re: Should Goodman have their own "house" system?

Post by ChristinaStiles » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:10 pm

moriarty777 wrote: Well, there is nothing to say that some of these companies that were thinking of jumping to 4e need to do so immediately. It could be that a couple of companies that have a lot at stake with the older edition stick with it just a while longer and eventually go to 4e if it is as good as all that.
They could, but they are still screwed for having to dump product with d20 logos on them within 6 months--assuming those products are still selling. Else, they probably are happy about dumping them to someone like Titan Games quickly.
moriarty777 wrote: Personally, this is just distancing me even further from the new system. I don't want anything to do with it and I'm rethinking even supporting WOTC in *any* way, shape, or form with this kind of stunt.
M
I'm with you on this one. But I've felt that way for several years now, as I much prefer the creative efforts coming out of the smaller companies. Now, it's more that I don't like the way they seem to be doing business. Just because you can push everyone around because you have the big bucks, it doesn't mean you should. The market can splinter again. The companies who have survived the d20 shakeout already have a fan base, and they can sustain themselves on that--as Paizo is banking.
Last edited by ChristinaStiles on Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: GG

Post by ChristinaStiles » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:20 pm

joela wrote:One option that's been suggested is for companies currently producing 3.x products to separate. You could see, for example, Green Ronin handling 4E products while a new company, "T20", handling True20 products and M&M. However, you can bet WotC will squash any such attempts. Paizo and Necromancer can get away with it because they're partners.
I think that will be squashed as an option by Wotc too. They can read the Net posts and see what people are thinking, and they will find a way to shut it down as well. It's really about elimination of competition. They don't want the splinter groups, and they want the companies that are going 4e to be strictly beholden to them. What's scary there is that they could then turn around and cease the GSL license and knock them all out of business.
He's probably still weighing his options. But GG has discontinued 3.x support for some time now and, IMO, there's really no profit to return to it. GG, like Necromancer, announced it was jumping on the 4E bandwagon and you can bet WotC will not look too kindly at companies backtracking or, worse, selling 4E products, then returning to OGL.
That's because everyone was playing the waiting game, thinking nothing 3.5 would sell during the interim. The 3.5 Freeport guide did well, though.

As to getting ticked off at those who said they'd partner, well, I'm sure those folks had no way of knowing how the GSL would float when they threw themselves in the ring. If Wotc is going to be cutthroat, then why care what they think about bowing out
.
What's "evergreen"?
It's a business term which means product that continues to sell well on an annual basis. In this regard, I'm referring to the DCCs. For the most part, the d20 glut cut a product's shelf life down to about 3 months. If it didn't sell within that timeline, you were sitting on the remainder and losing money. Goodman Games' stuff proved to have a much longer shelf life and continues to sell.
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Re: GG

Post by joela » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:06 pm

ChristinaStiles wrote:
joela wrote:What's scary there is that they could then turn around and cease the GSL license and knock them all out of business.
I was wondering about that as well. Also, isn't there a prevision allowing WotC to review 3PP materials before they're released? I'm concerned that WotC could delay such material especially if its getting ready to roll out similar supplements.
ChristinaStiles wrote:
That's because everyone was playing the waiting game, thinking nothing 3.5 would sell during the interim.
Goodman was probably one of those publishers invited to the Q&A session with WotC reps this week.
ChristinaStiles wrote:
It's a business term which means product that continues to sell well on an annual basis. In this regard, I'm referring to the DCCs. For the most part, the d20 glut cut a product's shelf life down to about 3 months. If it didn't sell within that timeline, you were sitting on the remainder and losing money. Goodman Games' stuff proved to have a much longer shelf life and continues to sell.
Thanks. And not surprising about the DCC: they're good stuff.
What do you mean no?

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Re: Should Goodman have their own "house" system?

Post by PeelSeel2 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:11 pm

No.

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Re: Should Goodman have their own "house" system?

Post by orcbreath » Thu May 01, 2008 7:16 am

It ultimately does not matter what WotC has for a strategy--They will never get dollar one from me for 4th ed stuff. I've been playing since D&D came in a white box with 3 little books, and what they have today is not D&D. The only reason I think about getting Pathfinder is because of all the great support material for 3.5 from the rest of the community.
If we all were to kick dirt on WotC, they would have to change their ways, or die. For myself, my new copy of Eldritch is what I'll be using for a good long while! :D House system or not, what's the difference?

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