Non-prof penalty
Moderators: DJ LaBoss, michaelcurtis, finarvyn, Harley Stroh
Non-prof penalty
So, as I understand it, if you aren't profiecient with a weapon, you are -4 to hit with hit. 0-level characters are only proficient with their starting wpn. but the -4 is waived for them?
So a 0 level can use any weapon, but as soon as they level up, they can't?
So a 0 level can use any weapon, but as soon as they level up, they can't?
- finarvyn
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Re: Non-prof penalty
Yes. While it defies logic, it works well as a RPG design tool.ogbendog wrote:So, as I understand it, if you aren't profiecient with a weapon, you are -4 to hit with hit. 0-level characters are only proficient with their starting wpn. but the -4 is waived for them?
So a 0 level can use any weapon, but as soon as they level up, they can't?
Basically, 0-level characters are primed to die since they have so few hit points, and putting in the additional disadvantage of applying the non-proficiency penalty proved just too deadly. Works better if you simply forgive them the penalty as long as they are still 0-level.
I like to think of the 0-level "funnel adventure" as somewhat different from the campaign itself. They run through the gauntlet just to see who survives, then the real campaign begins. That's when I start to apply the penalty.
Marv / Finarvyn
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"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
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DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
Re: Non-prof penalty
I understand the game design logic, but this last statement won't work for every group. My campaign, for example, looks like it will have seven or eight players of whom 3-5 will likely show for any given session. It is also a sandbox where characters can be of different level. Our second adventure had three players with level 1 characters and three players each having a 3 character level 0 group.finarvyn wrote:I like to think of the 0-level "funnel adventure" as somewhat different from the campaign itself. They run through the gauntlet just to see who survives, then the real campaign begins. That's when I start to apply the penalty.
I'd really prefer to be able to apply consistent rules to all players. I think something damage related would be appropriate. Either a -2 damage or all non-proficient and improvised weapons do 1d4 damage or something similar.
Actually, I'd rather just have a list of weapons restricted for clerics by god, for thieves to use in a backstab, and possibly by strength for the heavier damage dice, and just do away with other weapon training lists. Instead, give warriors a way to reduce that horrific armor check penalty (cut it in half?) as their training bonus.
Re: Non-prof penalty
but 0 levels are prof with their starting weapons, why would the -4 ever come up? The only time I could see is a guy with a missle wpn picking up a melee, or the other way around
or PCs who "I decided to become an adventureer and bought a longsword" which defies logic to me.
or PCs who "I decided to become an adventureer and bought a longsword" which defies logic to me.
Re: Non-prof penalty
Becomes pretty obvious in play. Most common scenarios are:ogbendog wrote:but 0 levels are prof with their starting weapons, why would the -4 ever come up? The only time I could see is a guy with a missle wpn picking up a melee, or the other way around
or PCs who "I decided to become an adventureer and bought a longsword" which defies logic to me.
1 - I started with a sling and have lower agility than strength, I'll swap with you for your melee weapon because you have an agility bonus.
2 - I'll take the spear from the fallen goblin.
3 - Ooh, we found a silver dagger? Sounds important, I think Garth will carry that.
4 - Hakma is going to swing her torch at the beast (like a club).
5 - I'm going to grab [random object lying around] and throw it at the closest cultist. (In my last adventure it was the prize radish a farmer had brought with him).
From what I've seen, easily a third of level 0 characters end up trying to attack with some item/weapon they didn't start with. I like encouraging this improvisation and creativity.
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Re: Non-prof penalty
Well, you make a compelling argument. Try using the -4 penalty and see how it goes. You may find that it is more logical and works for your group better! ![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
Re: Non-prof penalty
I think I'd allow some wpns to be used, either at no penalty, or at reuced. things like club, staff, dagger, and sling
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Re: Non-prof penalty
Then eliminate all "starting" weapon proficiency and change the non-weapon proficiency penalty to -2. Then it is consistent throughout all game levels. The game is deadly enough without the -4 penalty. -4 is just punishing.meinvt wrote:From what I've seen, easily a third of level 0 characters end up trying to attack with some item/weapon they didn't start with. I like encouraging this improvisation and creativity.
- finarvyn
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Re: Non-prof penalty
Solid advice. Making it a standard -2 for everyone is a pretty good idea!jmucchiello wrote:Then eliminate all "starting" weapon proficiency and change the non-weapon proficiency penalty to -2. Then it is consistent throughout all game levels. The game is deadly enough without the -4 penalty. -4 is just punishing.meinvt wrote:From what I've seen, easily a third of level 0 characters end up trying to attack with some item/weapon they didn't start with. I like encouraging this improvisation and creativity.
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
Re: Non-prof penalty
Agreed!finarvyn wrote:Solid advice. Making it a standard -2 for everyone is a pretty good idea!jmucchiello wrote:Then eliminate all "starting" weapon proficiency and change the non-weapon proficiency penalty to -2. Then it is consistent throughout all game levels. The game is deadly enough without the -4 penalty. -4 is just punishing.meinvt wrote:From what I've seen, easily a third of level 0 characters end up trying to attack with some item/weapon they didn't start with. I like encouraging this improvisation and creativity.
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Re: Non-prof penalty
In a differnt thread, I suggested that there be no non-prof penalty, but that the class bonus to his only apply to proficnet weapons. So yeat, a 0 level char is +0 with everything.
a higher level char has a bonus to his with class wpns, and is still +0 with others.
a higher level char has a bonus to his with class wpns, and is still +0 with others.
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Re: Non-prof penalty
But that requires rebalancing the attack bonus listed in all the class tables and the warrior class die is thrown out of whack. Not to mention escalation in attack bonuses means ACs need to rise.
Re: Non-prof penalty
why?
the current rule is, you get your attack bonus to hit, or attack bonus -4 with non-prof wpns. Attack bonuses do escale at you get higher in level
my idea is, the current attack bonus is only applied to wpns you are profient with, it's the equivalnet of saying that the non-prof penalty equals your attack bonus. which at least at lower levels, is less than 4.
and it explains why a 0 level character canuse everything equally badly, and doesn't suddenly become worse with some wpns at 1st level
if you use a prof wpn, this rule would be the same as the current official one. the only difference is if you are using a non-prof wpn
the current rule is, you get your attack bonus to hit, or attack bonus -4 with non-prof wpns. Attack bonuses do escale at you get higher in level
my idea is, the current attack bonus is only applied to wpns you are profient with, it's the equivalnet of saying that the non-prof penalty equals your attack bonus. which at least at lower levels, is less than 4.
and it explains why a 0 level character canuse everything equally badly, and doesn't suddenly become worse with some wpns at 1st level
if you use a prof wpn, this rule would be the same as the current official one. the only difference is if you are using a non-prof wpn
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Re: Non-prof penalty
How is that simpler than a flat -2 penalty for using a non-proficient weapon regardless of your level or class?
Re: Non-prof penalty
it depends on if -2 at 0 level is to brutal. So far, -4 has been playtested, and rejected. no non-prof penality has been playtested, and accepted, it just has the weirdness of the -4 kicking in at first leve.
if -2 is ok for 0 levels, that's probably fine, it just hasn't (to my knowledge) been playtested yet
if -2 is ok for 0 levels, that's probably fine, it just hasn't (to my knowledge) been playtested yet
Re: Non-prof penalty
I think that could work but I'd like to see the Occupational Proficiency remain but have it fixed. You're a Herbalist, and you've got a Staff? You're proficient with staves. Period.jmucchiello wrote:How is that simpler than a flat -2 penalty for using a non-proficient weapon regardless of your level or class?
I think most people would pick up and use other weapons they find in the first dungeon anyway, because you basically exchanging a 10% chance of hitting with a different average damage roll (shortsword, handaxe have 1d6, which means +1 avg dmg; spear +2avg dmg..), or the chance to pick enemies before they get you (Sling). Other weapons may fit your abilities better (maybe you got higher Agility and it cancels out the -2).
And honestly if i were the one walking in the creepy dungeon, and found a bow or a battleaxe, i would take it. And use it.
There's no need for waiving the -2 penalty for 0-level PCs, if it's just a -2.
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Re: Non-prof penalty
We have all these fancy dice now, can we just make non-proficient weapon attacks a d16 instead of a d20?
Re: Non-prof penalty
yeah, the "you were prof in the last thing you used" seems goofy. I like the idea that your orig prof carries over
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Re: Non-prof penalty
I'm guessing that would shift a critical hit from 1 in 20 to 1 in 16. Giving a non-proficient weapon attack a higher critical percentage seems odd. I guess they could say a non-proficient weapon can't auto-hit or crit ever though I'm a fan of having some chance of auto-hit.Halafax wrote:We have all these fancy dice now, can we just make non-proficient weapon attacks a d16 instead of a d20?
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Re: Non-prof penalty
Yes this does seem goofy. I can see a lot of fights over who gets to use the longsword last just so they can be prof with it at level one.ogbendog wrote:yeah, the "you were prof in the last thing you used" seems goofy. I like the idea that your orig prof carries over
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Re: Non-prof penalty
To quote the Beta rules:
"All 0-level characters are trained in the one weapon they possess carried over from their former occupation. If a 0-level character handles multiple weapons over his career, he is considered trained in the last weapon he fought with. At 1st level, a character gains training in additional weapons, based on the class he chooses."
For myself, I think this line implys that a 0 level will pick up a bunch of weapons until he gets a good one that he settles on and then gains first level. The -4 is waived for 0 level play. Adding a line of text to the final draft would help clarify.
"All 0-level characters are trained in the one weapon they possess carried over from their former occupation. If a 0-level character handles multiple weapons over his career, he is considered trained in the last weapon he fought with. At 1st level, a character gains training in additional weapons, based on the class he chooses."
For myself, I think this line implys that a 0 level will pick up a bunch of weapons until he gets a good one that he settles on and then gains first level. The -4 is waived for 0 level play. Adding a line of text to the final draft would help clarify.
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Re: Non-prof penalty
Forgot to post the rest of the Beta Quote.
"Generally, using a weapon without training imposes a -4 attack penalty. However, this penalty is waived for 0-level characters. It is assumed their naturally poor combat abilities reflect equal incompetence with the martial use of all weapons. (Not to mention that in playtests, applying the -4 penalty increases the 0-level death rate to absurd proportions.)"
"Generally, using a weapon without training imposes a -4 attack penalty. However, this penalty is waived for 0-level characters. It is assumed their naturally poor combat abilities reflect equal incompetence with the martial use of all weapons. (Not to mention that in playtests, applying the -4 penalty increases the 0-level death rate to absurd proportions.)"
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See my gaming blog at orcsamongus!
See my gaming blog at orcsamongus!
Re: Non-prof penalty
icetower hit the shark on the nose wrt rules as written, and it worked for my first group fine.
There are a number of viable options to explain it:
Adrenaline and fear are making them better fighters for now.
Suspend the disbelief, or I'll add more notches to my screen for your characters.
Because I'm the DM and I said so.
Because DCC is not real life (my favorite)
There are a number of viable options to explain it:
Adrenaline and fear are making them better fighters for now.
Suspend the disbelief, or I'll add more notches to my screen for your characters.
Because I'm the DM and I said so.
Because DCC is not real life (my favorite)
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Re: Non-prof penalty
The last time this was brought up I tendered the simple solution but it hasn't gained a lot of mindshare: Just change the penalty to -2 and apply it to characters of all levels.
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Re: Non-prof penalty
I still think the simplest, most elegant, most logical, and all around best solution is: your attack bonus/attack die only applies on attacks with weapons at you are proficient with, and there is no additional penalty for using a weapon you are not proficient with. Everyone starts out fighting like a mook. The survivors get better at it over time, but only with weapons they are proficient with.