[Design Question] DCC RPG and 10 Levels

[mntnjeff]

Now, maybe with the way spell casting and MDoA's and the luck mechanics work, maybe a level 10 pc in DCCRPG is more equivlent to a level 14 or 15 pc in older editions of DnD than what I first realized (as others have pointed out, a fighter is likely to get alot of MDoA at "high" levels of 6-10, and mages could be casting some pretty powerful spells if their power is based on a spell casting die).

This has occurred to me as well... And if this is true, then my previous rant (regarding running some of the higher level classics) holds no water.

I will admit, going up against giants at 3rd level (w/ only 17 hp) during the play test, certainly piqued my curiosity. What type of giants were those? Are 3rd level DCC characters really that much more resilient?

I'm just so curious to check this Beta out and answer some of these burning questions.

[moes1980]

Perhaps I over stated with the term demi god but basically, I liked that there were three stages in the level system that felt different. It seemed like once you hit level 3 or 4, you felt a little safer, you werent likely to die from a single crossbow bolt to the chest any more. From 4 to about 6 or 10 you were a strong character, perhaps well known in the local area, but you were not yet ready to take on the most legendary challenges (tomb of horros, crypt of the devil lich, etc). Once you started passing level 10, that is when you were strong enough to worry about really big problems and was usually when you could start to venture into places like the underdark, or other planes of existince to tackle bad guys that could do alot more harm to the world at large than the raiding goblins you killed at low level.

Well, sounds like our level ranges are a little different but not too much. I'll bet you are more of an AD&D guy (20 level max) rather than OD&D (typically 10-12 level max) and that would certainly explain our different perspectives.

My three ranges are a little lower. My first range goes from 1-4, topping out at Hero. My second is 5-8, reaching superhero and when most PCs retire. My top tier is 9-12, which is mostly reserved for those nasty NPCs. I figure that if I let characters get too high, then those nasty creatures get boring. Dragons, for example, should never just be another kill. They should scare the crud out of even a hero.

That's the way I do it, and DCC should fit my level scale quite well.

Well, I am more of a fan of DnD basic, which I thought went up to the 30's. I remember there is a whole chapter devoted to playing "immortals." But, either way, I just hope there is a feeling of progressions, of gaining power, of getting stronger (something sorely missing from 4th ed dnd where I can't tell much of a difference between a level one game and a level 16 game other than encounters taking 2.5 sessions to finish). If the core book for DCC RPG follows your scale, with 11-20 coverd in a later book, that would work for me.

Now, maybe with the way spell casting and MDoA's and the luck mechanics work, maybe a level 10 pc in DCCRPG is more equivlent to a level 14 or 15 pc in older editions of DnD than what I first realized (as others have pointed out, a fighter is likely to get alot of MDoA at "high" levels of 6-10, and mages could be casting some pretty powerful spells if their power is based on a spell casting die).

This has occurred to me as well... And if this is true, then my previous rant (regarding running some of the higher level classics) holds no water.

I will admit, going up against giants at 3rd level (w/ only 17 hp) during the play test, certainly piqued my curiosity. What type of giants were those? Are 3rd level DCC characters really that much more resilient?

I'm just so curious to check this Beta out and answer some of these burning questions.

Yup, we can chat all we want but we just don't really know what is coming untill we see the beta for ourselves. I am really interested in learning more about halfling, thieves, and the MDoA mechanic. I didn't hear about the 3rd level characters fighting giants, that is interesting. Looking foward to when we all can talk about how our games are going and we can chare our table stories!

[finarvyn]

Well, I am more of a fan of DnD basic, which I thought went up to the 30's.

I suspect we aren't talking about the same game.

Basic D&D went from levels 1 to 3. It came in three versions: Holmes, Moldvay, and Mentzer (authors). Basic D&D was followed by Expert D&D (levels 4-15; Cook and Mentzer) and Master D&D (Mentzer only) and then Companion D&D (Mentzer again) and eventually Immortals D&D (Still Mentzer). These are sometimes called B/X (basic and expert only) or BECMI. Most of the rules (levels 1-36) were combined into the "Rules Cyclopedia" hardback.

I suspect you are using "basic" as to mean "not advanced" (or not AD&D) instead of the context that I am using it.

My preferred "flavor" of these rules sets is the Moldvay/Cook B/X although I own a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia. I like B/X because it ends around 14th level, and my campaigns tend to end around 8-10th level.

That's also the anticipated level range for DCC RPG.

[Harley Stroh]

I will admit, going up against giants at 3rd level (w/ only 17 hp) during the play test, certainly piqued my curiosity. What type of giants were those? Are 3rd level DCC characters really that much more resilient?

More resilient? Heh. Probably not. I spent that entire session waiting for the dice to turn in my favor and start dropping PCs, and it didn't happen once.

Ran a DCC playtest last night with a mighty 5th level wizard. A master of the arcane, he had an awesome 6 hp.

//H

[finarvyn]

[Ran a DCC playtest last night with a mighty 5th level wizard. A master of the arcane, he had an awesome 6 hp.

Hopefully he avoided hand-to-hand combat.

One discussion about the way the OD&D rules are written is whether you re-roll all hit dice every time you "level up" or whether you just add one more to the total. (This comes about due to something called "fighting capability" in the 1974 rules set and is probably not too interesting to most posters here.) The point is that I've found that re-rolling all dice each time they advance a level is kind of neat and would totally avoid the 6 hp wizard you mention.

Also, it must have been an amazing die roll since my understanding is that a character gets a d4 at 0th level and adds hit dice on top of that, so a 5th level wizard would actually be rolling 6d4 and not 5d4. You can only roll a 6 on 6d4 one time in 4096. That's exceptional!

Even the other way of 5d4, there is only around a 1% chance of getting 6 hp. Still exceptional.

[Harley Stroh]

Also, it must have been an amazing die roll since my understanding is that a character gets a d4 at 0th level and adds hit dice on top of that, so a 5th level wizard would actually be rolling 6d4 and not 5d4. You can only roll a 6 on 6d4 one time in 4096. That's exceptional!

Even the other way of 5d4, there is only around a 1% chance of getting 6 hp. Still exceptional.

Not when you have a substantial stamina penalty, applied to each level's roll.

Though I confess that I did chuckle aloud while rolling up the pregens.

//H

[Stainless]

Though I confess that I did chuckle aloud while rolling up the pregens.

//H

Evil b@st@rd!

[Harley Stroh]

Though I confess that I did chuckle aloud while rolling up the pregens.

//H

Evil b@st@rd!

And proud of it! It is amazing what "roll 3d6 down the line" can do for stats and character optimization.

Though it should be stated for the record that our 6 hp wizard ended the session by devouring the souls of 13 witches to fuel his own magical insanity. The all-powerful PC wizard was only laid low when our thief learned the wizard's True Name (for which he paid with his life) and the cleric banished the stolen souls. Once that was accomplished, the warrior quickly sped our wizard on to his meeting with Death.

With parties like these, who needs monsters? >:)

//H

[Stainless]

Though it should be stated for the record that our 6 hp wizard ended the session by devouring the souls of 13 witches to fuel his own magical insanity. The all-powerful PC wizard was only laid low when our thief learned the wizard's True Name (for which he paid with his life) and the cleric banished the stolen souls. Once that was accomplished, the warrior quickly sped our wizard on to his meeting with Death.

That is so "Appendix N"! If the system, as opposed to the players, lends itself to that type of adventure, the DCC RPG should become legend!

[GnomeBoy]

With parties like these, who needs monsters?

So, wait -- it sounds like you're saying DCC RPG doesn't need a DM. Be careful you don't write yourself (and others) out of a job!

(Although the idea of getting to play a bit more often sounds fun...)

[Harley Stroh]

With parties like these, who needs monsters?

So, wait -- it sounds like you're saying DCC RPG doesn't need a DM. Be careful you don't write yourself (and others) out of a job!

Sadly true! All I did was sit back and tell them to roll for initiative!

//H

[moes1980]

Well, I am more of a fan of DnD basic, which I thought went up to the 30's.

I suspect we aren't talking about the same game.

Basic D&D went from levels 1 to 3. It came in three versions: Holmes, Moldvay, and Mentzer (authors). Basic D&D was followed by Expert D&D (levels 4-15; Cook and Mentzer) and Master D&D (Mentzer only) and then Companion D&D (Mentzer again) and eventually Immortals D&D (Still Mentzer). These are sometimes called B/X (basic and expert only) or BECMI. Most of the rules (levels 1-36) were combined into the "Rules Cyclopedia" hardback.

I suspect you are using "basic" as to mean "not advanced" (or not AD&D) instead of the context that I am using it.

My preferred "flavor" of these rules sets is the Moldvay/Cook B/X although I own a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia. I like B/X because it ends around 14th level, and my campaigns tend to end around 8-10th level.

That's also the anticipated level range for DCC RPG.

Um, I suppose, when I talk about DnD basic, I am usually talkign about the Rules Encyclopedia that had all the rules from all those thigns rolled into one. I started with DnD basic in the black box with the red dragon on it, which went from levels 1-5, than got the rules encylpodia a little bit later and played my first games out of those two rule books. So to me, the rules encyclopdeia is "DnD basic" in ints totality. But I am not familiar with the different elements of the encylopdia individually or how the game felt playing with those systems. This makes me sad

Afte some thought, I figure you (and Mr. Goodman) are probably right, going from level 1-10 will be a good level range for the core book, and higher levels can be in a differenet book, and represent a different feel for the game at those high levels.

[GnomeBoy]

Levels above 10 should be individual campaign boxed sets that deal with 'higher levels' as needed for the campaign therein. That, to me, would be beautiful.

[geordie racer]

Levels above 10 should be individual campaign boxed sets that deal with 'higher levels' as needed for the campaign therein. That, to me, would be beautiful.

+1 YES!!!

[rabindranath72]

Any hints about the "end game"? Will players be able to run baronies, conquest kingdoms by armies etc.?

[finarvyn]

Also, it must have been an amazing die roll since my understanding is that a character gets a d4 at 0th level and adds hit dice on top of that, so a 5th level wizard would actually be rolling 6d4 and not 5d4. You can only roll a 6 on 6d4 one time in 4096. That's exceptional!

Even the other way of 5d4, there is only around a 1% chance of getting 6 hp. Still exceptional.

Not when you have a substantial stamina penalty, applied to each level's roll. :twisted:Though I confess that I did chuckle aloud while rolling up the pregens.

Well,duh. I forgot about the stamina penalties. Of course that would improve the odds quite a bit.