Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
Moderators: DJ LaBoss, finarvyn, michaelcurtis, Harley Stroh
Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
I've read multiple playtest reports so far for the DCC RPG and it is often commented that the rules will need to have a good layout in order to make the game easy to use. That's obvious for any game (and sadly much neglected by RPG publishers), but it looks like it might be more so for the DCC RPG.
As a scientist, I'm a stickler for accuracy and very conscious of the difficulties in communicating complicated and/or voluminous information. One presentation method I think is greatly underutilised is the flowchart. To my mind, RPG systems are eminently suited to being condensed down into flowcharts, yet I've never seen an RPG rulebook use them.
As an example, I made a widely used flowchart for the Mongoose Traveller combat system that you can get here.
This was made using Microsoft Visio which, despite what many might say about Microsoft in general and their software in particular, is an outstanding program (as is OneNote, by the way).
This is my suggestion to those producing the DCC RPG; Translating your rules (at least some of them) into flowcharts is not only a very useful design process as it often helps you identify problems, but is also a very efficient way of presenting the final rule(s). I would encourage you to consider using them in the DCC RPG as an addition to the normal prose presentation of rules.
As a scientist, I'm a stickler for accuracy and very conscious of the difficulties in communicating complicated and/or voluminous information. One presentation method I think is greatly underutilised is the flowchart. To my mind, RPG systems are eminently suited to being condensed down into flowcharts, yet I've never seen an RPG rulebook use them.
As an example, I made a widely used flowchart for the Mongoose Traveller combat system that you can get here.
This was made using Microsoft Visio which, despite what many might say about Microsoft in general and their software in particular, is an outstanding program (as is OneNote, by the way).
This is my suggestion to those producing the DCC RPG; Translating your rules (at least some of them) into flowcharts is not only a very useful design process as it often helps you identify problems, but is also a very efficient way of presenting the final rule(s). I would encourage you to consider using them in the DCC RPG as an addition to the normal prose presentation of rules.
Avatar by Stefan Poag (I now own the original!)
-
- Mighty-Thewed Reaver
- Posts: 317
- Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:39 am
- Location: Knoxville, TN
- Contact:
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
That's a cool chart, but it looks a lot more intimidating and complex than actually just reading the rules did IMO. I certainly don't remember combat in MT being so complicated.
The thing that rulebooks need more of is examples. There should be an example for just about every rule. And the absolute best combat example I've ever seen is the one done in Hackmaster Basic. It uses a kodt comic to illustrate the combat- it's fun to read and teaches you everything you need to know. See for yourself-
http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/down ... xample.pdf
The thing that rulebooks need more of is examples. There should be an example for just about every rule. And the absolute best combat example I've ever seen is the one done in Hackmaster Basic. It uses a kodt comic to illustrate the combat- it's fun to read and teaches you everything you need to know. See for yourself-
http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/down ... xample.pdf
-
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:52 pm
- Location: Richmond, VA
- Contact:
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
As a usability guy and designer by trade, I agree with Stainless. Boardgames use flowcharts more often than not. And the ones that don't use a numbered-list, often in a big call-out box, with page references under each "step" in a process. This is for a good reason. A simple graphic can often tell us more about how something plays than 1500 words of text.Stainless wrote:This is my suggestion to those producing the DCC RPG; Translating your rules (at least some of them) into flowcharts is not only a very useful design process as it often helps you identify problems, but is also a very efficient way of presenting the final rule(s). I would encourage you to consider using them in the DCC RPG as an addition to the normal prose presentation of rules.
Most contemporary roleplayers don't read rules. They look them up. Maybe that's always been the case, considering how no one I've played AD&D with has understood or used segments, weapon speed, etc. And we're talking a lot of people there.
IIRC, HeroQuest (the rpg, not boardgame) used flowcharts in this fashion. It was helpful.
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
I think the only way a flowchart should be used is in conjunction with the written rules (I'm not suggesting them as the only presentation of the rules). You reads the rules first and then 'revise' your understanding by looking at the flowchart. The advantage of the flowchart, once you're a bit familiar with the written rules, is that everything is in one place (no page flipping) and often little details (e.g., the recoil rules in MGT) are somewhat buried away. I know people who use only the flowchart for all their MGT combat. I'd agree that going in cold would make the flowchart look quite daunting.mshensley wrote:That's a cool chart, but it looks a lot more intimidating and complex than actually just reading the rules did IMO. I certainly don't remember combat in MT being so complicated.
Avatar by Stefan Poag (I now own the original!)
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
Usign a flowchart is a good idea: I know different indie games using them (Polaris, Trollbabe, The Burning Wheel, etc).
In addition, a flowchart is the best way to avoid FAQs (if you have a flowchart, you can suppose there's only THAT interpretation of the rules).
In addition, a flowchart is the best way to avoid FAQs (if you have a flowchart, you can suppose there's only THAT interpretation of the rules).
- finarvyn
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
- Posts: 2600
- Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:42 am
- FLGS: Fair Game, Downers Grove IL
- Location: Chicago suburbs
- Contact:
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
Flowcharts help some folks, alienate others. They can be great if well done and simple, but if the designer tries to pack too much information in them many readers suffer from "techie overload" and refuse to look at them.
A flowchart might be more useful on a GM screen, PDF download, or seperate "reference sheets" for quick access rather than eating up page count in the core rulebook.
A flowchart might be more useful on a GM screen, PDF download, or seperate "reference sheets" for quick access rather than eating up page count in the core rulebook.
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
-
- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:36 pm
- FLGS: Total Escape Games, Broomfield CO
- Location: Denver, Colorado
- Contact:
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
+1finarvyn wrote: A flowchart might be more useful on a GM screen, PDF download, or seperate "reference sheets" for quick access rather than eating up page count in the core rulebook.
This could be handy as a separate DM tool.
"The Black Dougal" (formerly known as dkeester) -- DCCRPG Fan Boy since 2010
DCCRPG PC Death Toll: 25
DCCRPG Playtests: Tacticon 2010, GenghisCon 2011, Tacticon 2011, GenghisCon 2012
Member: The DCC Expendables (Denver, CO)
Doug may very well hold the dubious title of “most DCC RPG PCs lost during the course of convention play.”
--Harley Stroh
DCCRPG PC Death Toll: 25
DCCRPG Playtests: Tacticon 2010, GenghisCon 2011, Tacticon 2011, GenghisCon 2012
Member: The DCC Expendables (Denver, CO)
Doug may very well hold the dubious title of “most DCC RPG PCs lost during the course of convention play.”
--Harley Stroh
-
- Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
- Posts: 779
- Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
What rules are so confusing they need a flow chart? I can't believe this discussion is taking place on the forum for a game whose mantra (I thought) was KISS.
-
- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:36 pm
- FLGS: Total Escape Games, Broomfield CO
- Location: Denver, Colorado
- Contact:
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
Some people learn better (or faster) with visual aids. For those people something like this can be made available as a separate download.jmucchiello wrote:What rules are so confusing they need a flow chart? I can't believe this discussion is taking place on the forum for a game whose mantra (I thought) was KISS.
"The Black Dougal" (formerly known as dkeester) -- DCCRPG Fan Boy since 2010
DCCRPG PC Death Toll: 25
DCCRPG Playtests: Tacticon 2010, GenghisCon 2011, Tacticon 2011, GenghisCon 2012
Member: The DCC Expendables (Denver, CO)
Doug may very well hold the dubious title of “most DCC RPG PCs lost during the course of convention play.”
--Harley Stroh
DCCRPG PC Death Toll: 25
DCCRPG Playtests: Tacticon 2010, GenghisCon 2011, Tacticon 2011, GenghisCon 2012
Member: The DCC Expendables (Denver, CO)
Doug may very well hold the dubious title of “most DCC RPG PCs lost during the course of convention play.”
--Harley Stroh
-
- Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
- Posts: 779
- Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
I know that. But a flowchart for just 3-4 steps is overkill.dkeester wrote:Some people learn better (or faster) with visual aids. For those people something like this can be made available as a separate download.jmucchiello wrote:What rules are so confusing they need a flow chart? I can't believe this discussion is taking place on the forum for a game whose mantra (I thought) was KISS.
1) Name your target and attack weapon
2) Roll d20 + + + and inform the GM of the result
3) If the GM says you hit roll dx + + + or damage
What else is there in combat?
-
- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:36 pm
- FLGS: Total Escape Games, Broomfield CO
- Location: Denver, Colorado
- Contact:
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
Spell casting and MDoA to name two examples.jmucchiello wrote:I know that. But a flowchart for just 3-4 steps is overkill.dkeester wrote:Some people learn better (or faster) with visual aids. For those people something like this can be made available as a separate download.jmucchiello wrote:What rules are so confusing they need a flow chart? I can't believe this discussion is taking place on the forum for a game whose mantra (I thought) was KISS.
1) Name your target and attack weapon
2) Roll d20 + + + and inform the GM of the result
3) If the GM says you hit roll dx + + + or damage
What else is there in combat?
I personally don't think a flowchart is necessary, but it could be a good quick reference document for a DM. I don't really have a use for one, but maybe someone else does.
Oh, and just to point out the obvious. Your three step list is a kind of flowchart.
"The Black Dougal" (formerly known as dkeester) -- DCCRPG Fan Boy since 2010
DCCRPG PC Death Toll: 25
DCCRPG Playtests: Tacticon 2010, GenghisCon 2011, Tacticon 2011, GenghisCon 2012
Member: The DCC Expendables (Denver, CO)
Doug may very well hold the dubious title of “most DCC RPG PCs lost during the course of convention play.”
--Harley Stroh
DCCRPG PC Death Toll: 25
DCCRPG Playtests: Tacticon 2010, GenghisCon 2011, Tacticon 2011, GenghisCon 2012
Member: The DCC Expendables (Denver, CO)
Doug may very well hold the dubious title of “most DCC RPG PCs lost during the course of convention play.”
--Harley Stroh
-
- Ill-Fated Peasant
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:11 am
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
I read an interesting blog post that I think is related , the subject was about using art to express game mechanics. While the flavor of old school doesn't lend it self to oversimplification, I like the idea of charts or illustration that express meaning rather than just something pretty to look at.
While flow charts really aren't "art", i think they serve the same purpose and run in the same vein, for those interested i will post a link to the article.
http://atarashigames.wordpress.com/2010 ... -pictures/
It relates itself very much in my mind to the use of flowcharts as charts are just expressive illustrations.
While flow charts really aren't "art", i think they serve the same purpose and run in the same vein, for those interested i will post a link to the article.
http://atarashigames.wordpress.com/2010 ... -pictures/
It relates itself very much in my mind to the use of flowcharts as charts are just expressive illustrations.
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
With the paucity of rules that we know of so far, I think it's too early to know just how simple/streamlined the system will be (despite the design goal of KISS).
Also, the Mongoose Traveller combat system is very simple and streamlined (one of its often mentioned good points), yet the flowchart I used as an example has been very useful to many and I have received comments from some that they didn't fully understand the system until they gone through the flowchart.
Also, the Mongoose Traveller combat system is very simple and streamlined (one of its often mentioned good points), yet the flowchart I used as an example has been very useful to many and I have received comments from some that they didn't fully understand the system until they gone through the flowchart.
Avatar by Stefan Poag (I now own the original!)
- DCCfan
- Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
- Posts: 638
- Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:23 am
- FLGS: The Comics Club
- Location: Auburndale, FL
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
I agree. Just give us a good example. If it still doesn't make sense we will just house rule it and move on.mshensley wrote: The thing that rulebooks need more of is examples. There should be an example for just about every rule.
"When creating your character,choose an ethical system that can justify nearly any fit of temper, greed, cowardice, or vindictiveness, for example, Chaotic Violent..."
THE PROTOCOLS, ADVANCED PROTOCOL #10
THE PROTOCOLS, ADVANCED PROTOCOL #10
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
But what if viewing a flowchart makes the rules "make sense"? They are simply an very efficient aid to comprehension. Take up little space. Can be readily photocopied and handed out to new players to help guide them through their first combats, etc. Granted they work better for some people than they do for others, but the concept has been rather widely used and seems to be a great benefit in a lot of different areas. There must be something going for it.DCCfan wrote:I agree. Just give us a good example. If it still doesn't make sense we will just house rule it and move on.mshensley wrote: The thing that rulebooks need more of is examples. There should be an example for just about every rule.
Avatar by Stefan Poag (I now own the original!)
- GnomeBoy
- Tyrant Master (Administrator)
- Posts: 4128
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:46 pm
- FLGS: Bizarro World
- Location: Left Coast, USA
- Contact:
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
I dunno... As it was demo'ed in February, it was much more of a "what do you want to do?"-and-let-the-DM-let-you-know-what-you-need-to-roll type of game, than a here-are-your-options--pick-one (aiming, bracing, dodging, delay, etc) type of game. Given that it's a stripped down 3e variant, it's not like you need to correlate a bunch of Feats' interactions to understand what your options are...
Your example of a flowchart looks really good, but right off the bat there are two options for generating initiative -- I don't think DCC RPG is that sort of game.
Your example of a flowchart looks really good, but right off the bat there are two options for generating initiative -- I don't think DCC RPG is that sort of game.
...
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.
Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters
bygrinstow.com - The Home of Inner Ham
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.
Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters
bygrinstow.com - The Home of Inner Ham
-
- Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
- Posts: 779
- Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am
Re: Rulebook efficiency: A pitch for using flowcharts
Even with 25+ years of computer programming I've never found flowcharts more sensible than a good outline list. YMMV. A flowchart can only handle so much detail before it gets bogged down. And a flowchart with only a couple decisions is just a waste of space.Stainless wrote:But what if viewing a flowchart makes the rules "make sense"?