Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

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Blutimate
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Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by Blutimate » Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:26 am

Judges,

I need some assistance tweaking my adventure to allow the adventure to not solely star a cleric. I was testing my OwlCon adventure with some family this past weekend and the 5th level cleric in the group was on fire, turning, banishing, and bolting from the blue like no one's business. In fact, he was so effective that he practically instantly killed whatever was in his sights on his turn, which made combat unexciting for the warrior and thief in the group, since it was almost as if the cleric could run the show by himself. Not only that, but his spells allowed him to defeat obstacles that I had intended the party to overcome together.

Now, for the record, this is the cleric's stats:
Strength 10
Agility 7
Stamina 7
Personality 16
Intelligence 8
Luck 11

HP 15
AC 14 (Chainmail)
I gave him a +1 warhammer and a crossbow which he never used...

This is his spell list:
Bolt from the Blue
Animate Dead
Stinging Stone
Neutralize Poison or Disease
Lotus Stare
Curse
Banish
Resist Cold or Heat
Protection from Evil
Paralysis
Detect Evil
Blessing Self
Blessing Object

The cleric bolted a big bad in plate (instantly killing him), 2 humans, banished an elemental, repeatedly turned a very powerful evil ghost creature, and animated dead in ways that broke some of the puzzle of my adventure. It was fun for him, but not really fun for the other two.

What do you think I should do to weaken his character if anything (maybe an unlucky player would have failed)? I was thinking about making some kind of monster that would be resistant to magic (allowing the other players to have a combat), reducing his personality stat, or replacing some of the cleric's spells. I just don't want the pendulum to swing too far against the cleric.

Thoughts?

David Rose

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Raven_Crowking
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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by Raven_Crowking » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:13 am

Turn to page 358 of the core rules, read the section titled Magic Here and Magic There, and remember that adjustments to magic need not always help the casters. If you have In the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer, my adventure, Icon of the Blood Goddess, contains an example of how using magic indiscriminately may harm the PCs. Likewise, The Revelation of Mulmo has a number of knock-on magic effects, and some of them are dangerous indeed. You can see the same in The Falcate Idol.

Finally, if the cleric is using magic indiscriminately, remember that sinful use of divine power increases disapproval.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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catseye yellow
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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by catseye yellow » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:25 am

Blutimate wrote:Judges,

I need some assistance tweaking my adventure to allow the adventure to not solely star a cleric. I was testing my OwlCon adventure with some family this past weekend and the 5th level cleric in the group was on fire, turning, banishing, and bolting from the blue like no one's business. In fact, he was so effective that he practically instantly killed whatever was in his sights on his turn, which made combat unexciting for the warrior and thief in the group, since it was almost as if the cleric could run the show by himself. Not only that, but his spells allowed him to defeat obstacles that I had intended the party to overcome together.

Now, for the record, this is the cleric's stats:
Strength 10
Agility 7
Stamina 7
Personality 16
Intelligence 8
Luck 11

HP 15
AC 14 (Chainmail)
I gave him a +1 warhammer and a crossbow which he never used...

This is his spell list:
Bolt from the Blue
Animate Dead
Stinging Stone
Neutralize Poison or Disease
Lotus Stare
Curse
Banish
Resist Cold or Heat
Protection from Evil
Paralysis
Detect Evil
Blessing Self
Blessing Object

The cleric bolted a big bad in plate (instantly killing him), 2 humans, banished an elemental, repeatedly turned a very powerful evil ghost creature, and animated dead in ways that broke some of the puzzle of my adventure. It was fun for him, but not really fun for the other two.

What do you think I should do to weaken his character if anything (maybe an unlucky player would have failed)? I was thinking about making some kind of monster that would be resistant to magic (allowing the other players to have a combat), reducing his personality stat, or replacing some of the cleric's spells. I just don't want the pendulum to swing too far against the cleric.

Thoughts?

David Rose
what about displeasure? it seems that he has nice streak of good luck. also, any intelligent opponent goes first after gandalf.

also, animate dead can be tricky spell just like unseen servant. anyone who regularly summons things deserves to have them turn on him on occasions. plus, there is at least one pissed off elemental itching for vengeance out there.

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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by Ravenheart87 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:33 am

Well he must have been a lucky bastard, my players never ended a single session without at least a single disapproval. Did he never roll low and never fail a spell?
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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by GnomeBoy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:12 am

Like others, my first thought is "are you doing Disapproval right?". I know I had it wrong when I first started messing around with the game...

Any failed casting adds to the Disapproval range. First failure = Disapproval happens with any 1 or 2 on a Spellcheck that follows. Next time a casting is failed, that range moves up to 1 through 3. And so on... If there is lots of casting going on, it can even creep into the success range of the spell or ability, turning successes into failures with Disapproval on top.

The more the Cleric casts and turns and all that, the greater the risk of things going wrong for them for the rest of the day.

So, are these 'checks and balances' in place?

On the other hand, if the player has just had a lengthy streak of good luck with the dice, just let it ride... It won't last.
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com

Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

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Max_The_Judge
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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by Max_The_Judge » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:05 pm

A 5th level cleric with only 15 hp?

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Shingen
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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by Shingen » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:46 pm

That low Agility didn't become a liability?
SILAS, L, Ostler, S14, A13, S12, P11, I14, L5, AC11, HP3, Staff +1 1d4+1, Init 1, R +1, F0, W0, 10' Chain, Bridle, Path of the bear (Melee damage rolls), Com +1

PERCIVAL, N, Halfling dyer, S12, A10, S9, P13, I6, L12, AC10, HP2, Staff +0 1d4, Init 0, R0, F0, W+1, Small sack, 3 yards fabric, Righteous heart (Turn unholy checks), Com

DERVOS, N, Corn Farmer, S13, A8, S8, P12, I13, L13, AC9, HP 1, Pitchfork +1 1d8+2, Init -1, R-1, F-1, W0, Waterskin, hen, Path of the bear (Melee damage rolls) (+1) Com +1

EIBUR, C, Potato Farmer, S8, A7, S12, P11, I13, L7, AC 9, HP 2, Pitchfork -1 1d8-1, Init -1, R-1, F0, W0, Torch, Goat, Struck by lightning (Reflex saving throws) Com +1

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Blutimate
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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by Blutimate » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:23 pm

Raven_Crowking wrote:Turn to page 358 of the core rules, read the section titled Magic Here and Magic There, and remember that adjustments to magic need not always help the casters. If you have In the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer, my adventure, Icon of the Blood Goddess, contains an example of how using magic indiscriminately may harm the PCs. Likewise, The Revelation of Mulmo has a number of knock-on magic effects, and some of them are dangerous indeed. You can see the same in The Falcate Idol.

Finally, if the cleric is using magic indiscriminately, remember that sinful use of divine power increases disapproval.
Raven,

Thank you for referring me to that page. I had forgotten about that rule and because of the nature of the special circumstances of my module (city has been sealed off magically because the city is plagued by unknown magic) it completely makes sense for magic to react differently, especially if it is from a god that is opposed to cities (which his god was).

I actually own the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer and did not realize that you were the author. I only skimmed through it but will refer to it.

Thanks for your help,
David

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Blutimate
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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by Blutimate » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:27 pm

GnomeBoy wrote:Like others, my first thought is "are you doing Disapproval right?". I know I had it wrong when I first started messing around with the game...

Any failed casting adds to the Disapproval range. First failure = Disapproval happens with any 1 or 2 on a Spellcheck that follows. Next time a casting is failed, that range moves up to 1 through 3. And so on... If there is lots of casting going on, it can even creep into the success range of the spell or ability, turning successes into failures with Disapproval on top.

The more the Cleric casts and turns and all that, the greater the risk of things going wrong for them for the rest of the day.

So, are these 'checks and balances' in place?

On the other hand, if the player has just had a lengthy streak of good luck with the dice, just let it ride... It won't last.
Ravenheart86 wrote: Well he must have been a lucky bastard, my players never ended a single session without at least a single disapproval. Did he never roll low and never fail a spell?
Hey Gnomeboy and Ravenheart,

His disapproval rating crept up to a significant 4, but he NEVER hit a fumble causing disapproval. Other characters fumbled several times. His luck did not run out during our game... If it wasn't my dice at my table...

And that is why I don't want to super nerf the cleric. If a player had less fortune, it would have been balanced out.

David
Last edited by Blutimate on Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Blutimate
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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by Blutimate » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:36 pm

Max_The_Judge wrote:A 5th level cleric with only 15 hp?
Shingen wrote:That low Agility didn't become a liability?
I utilized Tatterdamalion's tampering on Purple Sorcerer's Upper Level Character Generator with reroll 1's selected, so no mistakes there. I tried to choose a cleric among the results that had good cleric slants but nothing else.

Unfortunately, the few other skill checks that the group had to do he passed (one in particular was a trap that they intentionally set off after the thief failed to disarm it caused a floor to drop. He made that one...)!

Lucky pc...

David

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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by GnomeBoy » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:46 pm

Blutimate wrote:If a player had less fortune, it would have been balanced out.
Yeah, if it's dice that are making him "on fire", then let it be. The dice will swing the other way soon enough.

And if you "chose" a set of stats that were "Cleric-y" (I think that's what I seeing you say), then that might be an issue, too. Remember the RAW sets you up playing 4 random zero level characters, and you get to level up what survives... that survivor may have a less-than-optimal set of stats... :wink:
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com

Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by Raven_Crowking » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:21 am

Blutimate wrote:
GnomeBoy wrote:Like others, my first thought is "are you doing Disapproval right?". I know I had it wrong when I first started messing around with the game...

Any failed casting adds to the Disapproval range. First failure = Disapproval happens with any 1 or 2 on a Spellcheck that follows. Next time a casting is failed, that range moves up to 1 through 3. And so on... If there is lots of casting going on, it can even creep into the success range of the spell or ability, turning successes into failures with Disapproval on top.

The more the Cleric casts and turns and all that, the greater the risk of things going wrong for them for the rest of the day.

So, are these 'checks and balances' in place?

On the other hand, if the player has just had a lengthy streak of good luck with the dice, just let it ride... It won't last.
Ravenheart86 wrote: Well he must have been a lucky bastard, my players never ended a single session without at least a single disapproval. Did he never roll low and never fail a spell?
Hey Gnomeboy and Ravenheart,

His disapproval rating crept up to a significant 4, but he NEVER hit a fumble causing disapproval. Other characters fumbled several times. His luck did not run out during our game... If it wasn't my dice at my table...

And that is why I don't want to super nerf the cleric. If a player had less fortune, it would have been balanced out.

David
Remember that disapproval doesn't occur only one a "1". Any roll within the disapproval range triggers disapproval and is automatically a failure.

Remember, too, that "sinful use of divine power" also causes disapproval to rise, and does not require a die roll.

Eventually, the Dice Gods will even the playing field, and the cleric who is riding high today will be sacrificing treasure to reduce his disapproval tomorrow.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: Overpowered Cleric in Adventure

Post by catseye yellow » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:13 am

or sacrficing henchmen, more likely.

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