Firearms

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Clangador
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Firearms

Post by Clangador » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:59 pm

Has anyone come up with firearms stats for DCC yet?
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Re: Firearms

Post by NJPDX » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:29 pm

Well what kind of firearm?

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Re: Firearms

Post by Clangador » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:06 pm

NJPDX wrote:Well what kind of firearm?
All of them.
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Re: Firearms

Post by Johann » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:00 pm

Have you noticed this?
TIME TRAVELER
Time traveler: Init +3; Atk laser sword +8 melee (2d6) or
blaster +8 missile fire (3d6, range 400’) [...]

-- DCC RPG, p. 429
Not exactly what you're looking for, but a good starting point.

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Re: Firearms

Post by GnomeBoy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:00 am

I have been pondering them, but never settled on a mechanic that I seemed to fit perfectly.

I think my best idea was open ended damage die rolls. A gun does 1d4 damage, but if you roll a 4, you roll again and add them together. Repeat as needed. Thus the smaller the damage die, the more likely to run up a higher amount of damage (or else just 'wing' the target). So a more deadly weapon would use a 1d3 or even 1d2 -- except that in practice, I'm not sure you get a more deadly effect out of this... Maybe it should be two dice, and if one comes up max, re-roll and add both. Or it's the top two results, not just the top result, that spurs the re-roll. Or maybe both of those.
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Re: Firearms

Post by Monster » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:03 am

Swords 1D6
Guns 2D6
Lasers 3D6

Big swords 1D8, 2D6, 1D10,1D12
Big guns 2D8, 3D6, 2D10, 2D12
Big lasers 3D8, 4D6, 3D10, 3D12

Most D20 style games like starwars and D20 modern use these types of stats.
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Re: Firearms

Post by Johann » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:19 am

GnomeBoy wrote:I think my best idea was open ended damage die rolls. A gun does 1d4 damage, but if you roll a 4, you roll again and add them together. Repeat as needed. Thus the smaller the damage die, the more likely to run up a higher amount of damage (or else just 'wing' the target). So a more deadly weapon would use a 1d3 or even 1d2 -- except that in practice, I'm not sure you get a more deadly effect out of this...
This is the formula you are looking for (where n = the die's number of sides):

Average result of one open-ended dn = ½ n (n + 1) / (n - 1)

An open-ended d6 has an average of 4.2 (+0.7 compared to a normal d6).
An open-ended d4 has an average of 3.333 (+0.8333 compared to a normal d4).

So this doesn't really work, I'm afraid.

Best wishes

Johann

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Re: Firearms

Post by Skars » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:59 am

I have some basic rules originally by a former DM during the 3.x years that I have converted to DCC. The premise is that there are two types of explosives used in firearms, Smokepowder and Crystal Fire.

Smokepowder - is a rare substance mined and controlled by Gnomes. It is very expensive, but reliable for shot in the "Drake" essentially the equivalent of a long gun and carries the same stats as a heavy crossbow.

Crystal Fire - the Human Alchemist made version of Smokepowder from special concoction of crystals ground together. Less expensive, but only suitable for explosives and blunderbuss type weapons. I use a basic breath weapon attack for the blunderbuss.

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Re: Firearms

Post by Maxwell Luther » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:15 am

Thing to remember is guns aren't more deadly because of damage, necessarily (assuming you're not using dum-dums or a cannon). A slash from a sword can cause just as much damage if hitting the vitals, if not more due to the size of the wound, and can take a limb right off.

No, the power of the gun is it made armor obsolete due to its high penetration power. Even the heaviest practical medieval armor won't really stop a bullet. It might deflect it at the right angle, but it won't just stop it. So I'd suggest a to-hit bonus for firearms, even for relatively untrained NPCs. That is what makes them, like the crossbow before them, such a great equalizer. Now if you're talking medieval firearms, you should have some sort of massive reload factor, but other than that, the damage should be comparable to normal weapons (1D6 - 1D10 depending on the size of the bullet).

Cannons are another story, and a cannon ball should just result in a Save or Die situation if they hit.

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Re: Firearms

Post by Skyscraper » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:05 am

Maxwell Luther wrote:Thing to remember is guns aren't more deadly because of damage, necessarily (assuming you're not using dum-dums or a cannon). A slash from a sword can cause just as much damage if hitting the vitals, if not more due to the size of the wound, and can take a limb right off.

No, the power of the gun is it made armor obsolete due to its high penetration power. Even the heaviest practical medieval armor won't really stop a bullet. It might deflect it at the right angle, but it won't just stop it. So I'd suggest a to-hit bonus for firearms, even for relatively untrained NPCs. That is what makes them, like the crossbow before them, such a great equalizer. Now if you're talking medieval firearms, you should have some sort of massive reload factor, but other than that, the damage should be comparable to normal weapons (1D6 - 1D10 depending on the size of the bullet).

Cannons are another story, and a cannon ball should just result in a Save or Die situation if they hit.
Very interesting points.

Not sure about save or die for cannon ball however. Perhaps simply a very high damage die (e.g. 1d30).
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Re: Firearms

Post by GnomeBoy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:08 am

Johann wrote:Average result of one open-ended dn = ½ n (n + 1) / (n - 1)

An open-ended d6 has an average of 4.2 (+0.7 compared to a normal d6).
An open-ended d4 has an average of 3.333 (+0.8333 compared to a normal d4).

So this doesn't really work, I'm afraid.

Best wishes

Johann
Well, the point isn't that the average is higher -- the point is that there are cases where the total is higher (and sometimes much higher).

In playing around with the idea, I've seen a single d3 do 20 points of damage. What I was looking at was that, on average, it isn't a better weapon, per se, but that sometimes it was just out and out deadly. Monster's suggestion certainly works -- but for my own taste, I like something that differentiates firearms from the usual weapons. Still haven't found a solution, but thought I'd share the experiment; never know what the idea might spark for someone else...
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Re: Firearms

Post by GnomeBoy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:09 am

Skyscraper wrote:Perhaps simply a very high damage die (e.g. 1d30).
Some would argue that a cannonball that hits you isn't going to do a mere 1 hp of damage.

I'd counter that damage dealt doesn't have to come from the weapon. It can come from avoiding the weapon.

But not everyone likes that stuff.
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Re: Firearms

Post by Maxwell Luther » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:17 am

There is no real chance of getting 'winged' by a cannon-ball. If it hits you, that's pretty much it, so a Save or Die Reflex roll seems appropriate. And not only that, but cannon balls bounce, so they'd hit everything between the cannon, the point of impact and (if they don't stick) the second point of impact. So dodges all around.

However, if it doesn't hit you directly, it can still wound you if you're in the area due to flying bits of debris (or shrapnel if it is built to explode). So I'd say a blast radius of about 5' (basically the target hex/square and all the surrounding hexes/squares) with a damage of 1D6 for solid shot, and 1D16 for exploding shot.

Other types of shot, like Grapeshot, would cause something like D30 within a certain range, with a reduction in die size for every multiple of that range. Chainshot, would work like a normal Cannon ball, but I'd let it affect a line two squares wide. Other types of shot (dragonfire rounds, magical homing cannonballs, etc.) are left up to the imagination...

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Re: Firearms

Post by Skyscraper » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:40 am

GnomeBoy wrote:
Skyscraper wrote:Perhaps simply a very high damage die (e.g. 1d30).
Some would argue that a cannonball that hits you isn't going to do a mere 1 hp of damage.

I'd counter that damage dealt doesn't have to come from the weapon. It can come from avoiding the weapon.

But not everyone likes that stuff.
I think that if you get 1 HP of damage from a cannonball, you weren't hit in the gut by the incoming cannon ball, in the same way that if a long sword hits you for a single hit point of damage, it wasn't driven through your gut either. And how can one survive a fireball or a lightning bolt, or a dragon crushing someone underfoot? To me it's all the same thing: come up with an explanation of how that weapon or spell didn't kill you. I.e. either avoiding the weapon, or hit by debris flying from where the cannonball hit, or cut by the weapon on your arm instead of having the blade driven through your heart. The bigger the weapon, the more likely it is that you won't make it.

I don't think that cannonballs only killed people on the field, I think they injured many also. Those in the direct path of the cannonball aren't just injured of course - we all agree that the guy with his head inside the cannon to see if his dire squirrel familiar is hiding there when the cannon is fired, probably doesn't make it. "Boo, are you there?"

Hehe :)

Save or die can be used and can certainly be argued, I just don't see that mechanic as necessary where the usual damage mechanic seems to fit. But for the few times where cannons are likely to be encountered in a game, why not.

This said, I don't think a cannon was ever used to fire at someone in particular. Cannons were used in mass combats, or as a siege weapon. So you won't actually get an attacker to roll a d20 against the AC of the target, to see if the cannon hits, because no one is there with his cannon, saying "see that guy with the white hat and the funny breaches? I'll get him..."

Consequently, I see cannon hits in DCC (and in real life) more of a badluck than anything else. One way of handling that might be, say, you have (5% X luck mod) every 10 imnutes you're on the battlefield of being hit by a cannonball (or the like). If you do, you suffer 1d30 damage - if it ends up being above your total HPs, it means you were hit by the cannonball or crushed under some structure that it hit. If it's under, you were caught in the blast of stuff the ball hit, but you survive.
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Re: Firearms

Post by smathis » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:53 am

There are rules for firearms in Transylvanian Adventures. Not machine-guns, cannons, or explosives though. Those will have to wait until a following book.

The rules playtested well. Firearms are pretty cool. But don't dominate. There's no armor in Transylvanian Adventures either. And the rules for shooting at someone wearing armor are... well... just don't wear armor in Transylvanian Adventures. Someone with a flintlock will put the hurt on you...

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Re: Firearms

Post by ragboy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:28 am

something I haven't seen in RPGs (Savage Worlds has a bit of this) is the "kick factor" for firearms. There should be a STR minimum for using certain weapons (even modern ones). Early firearms were not easy to handle, especially for the small/weak.
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Re: Firearms

Post by Johann » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:57 pm

GnomeBoy wrote:Thus the smaller the damage die, the more likely to run up a higher amount of damage (or else just 'wing' the target).
Despite your example of an open-ended d3 scoring 20 points of damage, the above is not correct. Your chance of scoring 20 points of damage is higher with an open-ended d6.

For a quick calculation, consider the likelyhood of scoring an 18 (i.e. at least 19 points of damage, as you'll get to continue rolling):

Open-ended d3: (1/3)^6 => 1:729
Open-ended d6: (1/6)^3 => 1:216

But I'll stop with the formulas now.

I agree with Maxwell about damage (1d6 to 1d10 or thereabouts) and might consider adding an armor-piercing quality (i.e. firearms ignore armor but not Agility). Depending on the commonness this extra stat (3e's Touch AC) might not be worth bothering with.

Best wishes

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Re: Firearms

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:09 am

So, Johann, we agree it's imperfect. Cool.

I suppose modeling firearms is about what you want to reflect with them. Swordplay in D&D-esque RPGs is usually more whittling away at your foe, like something from a swashbuckling movie. In reality, both swords and guns can kill you with one blow. So, what sort of gun-play are we trying to model?

I'd daresay my imperfect system, pitched onto the field of discussion for the possibility that someone might build something better on top of it, doesn't do a bad job of reflecting "Western"-style gunfights, where it's all near misses and maybe getting winged until that one shot does somebody in.

Mostly, I'm waiting for Transylvanian Adventures for what that answer is... :mrgreen:
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Re: Firearms

Post by MrHemlocks » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:15 am

Dose the newest adventure, Frozen In Time, have guns/lasers sci-fi weapons? http://www.goodmangames.com/5080preview.html

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Re: Firearms

Post by Monster » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:29 am

I also think it should just be a judge call.

I also think a "shield" spell could block a lot of shots.

Open ended dice used in 2nd ed DnD was a D10 and kept rerolling 10s.
This made the possibility of huge damage and D10 is still decent damage...
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2. any creature so ugly or monstrous as to frighten people.
3. any animal or human grotesquely deviating from the normal shape, behavior, or character.
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Re: Firearms

Post by smathis » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:09 am

GnomeBoy wrote:So, Johann, we agree it's imperfect. Cool.

I suppose modeling firearms is about what you want to reflect with them. Swordplay in D&D-esque RPGs is usually more whittling away at your foe, like something from a swashbuckling movie. In reality, both swords and guns can kill you with one blow. So, what sort of gun-play are we trying to model?

I'd daresay my imperfect system, pitched onto the field of discussion for the possibility that someone might build something better on top of it, doesn't do a bad job of reflecting "Western"-style gunfights, where it's all near misses and maybe getting winged until that one shot does somebody in.

Mostly, I'm waiting for Transylvanian Adventures for what that answer is... :mrgreen:
Lol.

TATG's firearms aren't perfect. But here is what they do well...

1) Allow for cheap ammunition and (relatively) inexpensive firearms to not dominate combat. Flintlocks are mostly a one-and-done. It's nearly impossible to reload a rifle or pistol in normal combat. So, while a little better, they're not perfect end-all-be-alls. I had a player with an Outlaw/Hunter whose M.O. was drawing two flintlocks, blasting whatever he was facing with them, pocketing them, and pulling out a sword and dagger. Pistol whippage has also been pretty common if a beastie can close to melee range.

2) Reflect the sort of wings/near-misses as well as full-on, D.O.A. type of shots. Unlike some games, a good shot with a Derringer could kill somebody. But a rifle could wing you and only do minimal damage.

3) Gives the Judge a very, very simple rule for lesser damage to creatures that wouldn't be susceptible to firearms. How much damage would a rifle do to a skeleton? Or a mummy? Or Swamp Thing? TATG handles this very well, without a lot of DR maths and such.

4) Handling crits/fumbles. Firearms in TATG have their own crit/fumble ratings. This reflects that oftentimes the skill of the shooter can be negligible. A more skilled shooter will get better crits. A less skilled one will have worse fumbles. But guns jam. Powder gets wet. Or the blasting cap is a dud. That all happens. Firearms also have their own crit/fumble tables. They needed them. The worst result I've encountered yet was a 0-Level whose flintlock didn't go off so he looked in the barrel and shook it a couple of times... BOOM! A skilled shooter wouldn't do that. An unskilled/untrained one? Heheheh.

TATG doesn't handle "kickback". That could be added in, though. Machine-guns, explosives... all that is still to come. Not that there are a lot of machine guns in TATG (or any, really) but a mad scientist's minion/goon might have one. It's more of a hack to the existing firearms than anything else.

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