Spell Checks as Save DCs

[Rostranor]

Fellow Judges,
Is anyone else having issues with the Spell Check establishing the DC for the spell saves? For instance I have an Elf that is consistently rolling in the 20's for a spell check on Ropework making the save almost impossible to deflect. In many cases only a natural 20 will defeat it. Anyone else experiencing this?

[maxinstuff]

I suppose you would have to give the enemies better saves.....

What are the elf's bonuses to his checks to roll 20+ consistently?

[Rostranor]

+3 for INT, +2 Level, +1 Luck roll to spells, +1 Elves pck one spell for a plus 1.

[maxinstuff]

So he has rolled 18 INT, a +1 luck mod, spell checks as birth auger, AND rolled an elf??

Firstly I just want to say that if this was all rolled legit then they are extremely lucky - that is a lot of stacked bonuses in an extremely rare combination (albeit you CAN simply pick an occupation RAW).

As for what you should do about it, given the circumstances I don't think you should do anything. Keep it real, keep it deadly.

Magic use will eventually catch up to them - a point of luck here, some spellburn there, before you know it - BAM, you're now a squid.

Just keep an eye on those die rolls - if you know what I mean

[GnomeBoy]

+3 for INT, +2 Level, +1 Luck roll to spells, +1 Elves pck one spell for a plus 1.

Yeah, that is an exceptional combo.

Vary the challenges such that there are more things to face than can be dealt with even by a good spellcheck. 100 'zero-level' monsters might not even begin to threaten a TPK, but could still pose a threat, and the Wizard can't stop them all.

I mean, if Ropework is the 'issue', then the real issue is too few monsters. Okay, so the Wizard grabs one in a rope that is impossible to escape -- meanwhile, the other four creatures beat the snot out of the Wizard and the rest of the party...

[oncelor]

I've increased monster saving throws by about 33% over the examples given in the monster cyclopedia.

[Rostranor]

I can attest that it was rolled legit. At second level though there is already a gulf opening up between the elf and the other casters because they are losing spells a lot more and want to rest up while the Elf wants to push ahead at all hazard.

We are going through the barrowmaze and my first attempt was to do a straight conversion. Now however I am constructing the encounters and tailoring them to the party more.

I was just curious to see if anyone else was having the crazy DC save number issue at lower level.

[Skars]

Rostranor, my players roll horribly. Hah, so even though we got a couple pretty awesome level-0 chars it just hasn't panned out for them after the fact like the case of the elf and rope work. We do have a really lucky (and agile) Halfling lucky charm that up until now has essentially just kept the party from self-destruction (due to poor rolls aforementioned heh).

To help out in your game, add some environmental factors that force the player to make the check at a disadvantage (I love the dice chain for these types of situations) It won't be like he is the one targeted by your handiwork as it will likely impact the whole party in some fashion but it might allow for another member to shine under the circumstances. Lastly, as an Elf, he has a patron and it might be time for the patron to pay a visit if you _do_ want to target him directly hah with some difficult quest or demand.

[GnomeBoy]

I wonder how many times you can throw monsters that exhale iron filings at the party...

[Tortog]

+3 for INT, +2 Level, +1 Luck roll to spells, +1 Elves pck one spell for a plus 1.

Oh look... another rock star PC.

Concerning the portion I highlighted: I went back and checked with the RAW, but I can't find any reference to luck applying to all of a wizard or elf's casting checks. Unless I've missed something, Luck only applies to rolls for Mishaps and Corruption checks. So it looks like you can at least save yourself that '1' pip of bonus.

As far as rock star combo's; a wizard or elf character doesn't even have to have the 18 INT to be difficult to handle. Take the elf character from the Pre-gens for the Imperishable Sorceress module. The PC has 17 INT, 13 Luck, and 13 STR. The only saving grace is that the character has a Stamina score of 5. Even though the character died in the first session, the 13 luck allowed the character to lose some of the fear of death. After leveling up for the next adventure the character ended up with Reduce as her new spell; unfortunately, the MM result was the dreaded Breath of Life... Though this did cause two of the fights to last much longer than they would have otherwise, due to the omnidirectional effect of the healing energy. Players were eventually triumphant, killing the Big Bad Boss at the end of the module. However, if it hadn't been for the 'recover the body rule' only the rock star elf would have survived of the 4 characters that started the module.

I don't think these combo's are as rare as folks would like them to be, but they are unavoidable. I think I'll be going with one of two solutions as a house rule for future games.

1. Rewrite the equation for casting check to: action die + stat modifier + whatever bonuses the player can devise/discover through playing the game. On a result of natural 20 the character gets to add their level to the casting check as a bonus. Not tested this one yet, but I might with this next game since we'll be starting over with new characters. This solution also has the added benefit that it should bring the DC values for the saves back down to a more balanced level which should cause the top end of the spell tables to be accessed far less often.

2. Give the other characters magic equipment and/or minor power boosts to bring their power level up to the rock star level. For as long as it lasts: everyone plays a rock star game, enjoy it for what it is and then move on. This was my go-to solution back in 1st and 2nd edition whenever I had character that was more powerful than the others. I've tested this one and it works just as well as it always has.

FWIW > Powerful wizards and clerics don't really cause me too much grief, I've been dealing with those for years. The DCC character combos that scare the piss out of me are the halfling or thief with an 18 luck. I figure these combos are germane to the topic because they can jack the save DCs for things way beyond normal as well; and they can do it more often. I've even gone to the point of banning halflings just to keep that nightmare from occurring; but I know that eventually, some day I'll sit down to run a game and find a thief with a luck of 17-18 sitting at the table... not looking forward to that at all. As I see it, unless I impose some sort of cap on how much luck they can spend per day then I need work extra hard to kill off that character within the first 3-4 levels; otherwise the odds of doing so later on will drop off to practically nil...

[Rostranor]

Result 13 on the Luck Chart; seventh son is applied to spell checks. I House ruled that all characters get a +1 for their lucky roll regardless of their luck.


I too am going through the barrowmaze. Though now I am working in some undead with spell resistance.

I think the player is also self correcting a bit now that there is a second wizard in the group and he sees the Elf is in fact a steam roller.