Goodman Games

Currently playing through Jewels of the Carnifex with my group, and it's a lot of fun from a traps perspective. One character, one of the clerics, hit the age-gas trap to the tune of +49 years... so he's probably about 69-70 now. The module recommends consulting the AD&D DMG as to what effects that might have, has anybody DCC-ified those tables? I was thinking about something like the following, cumulative modifiers:

Young/Adult: no modifiers to stats as rolled
Mature: -1 Str, +1 Int
Old: -1 Agi, -1 Sta, +1 Int, +1 Per
Venerable: -2 Str/Agi/Sta, +2 Int, +1 Per
Ancient: -2 Str/Agi/Sta, +2 Int, +1 Per

The idea being that you get smarter/wiser as you get older, and maybe that helps make you more persuasive, personable, convincing, stronger-willed, whatever. So an ancient character is looking at a cumulative set of modifiers of -5 Str/Agi/Sta, +6 Int, +3 Per.

Is this ripe for abuse, though? I can see a smart wizard specifically choosing to age themselves rapidly... maybe you don't gain the benefits if you do that? If that's the case, though, does the trap gain any bonuses? Only penalties? I guess it's a pretty big tradeoff, though... no more spellburning if your physical stats are at 3. However, for a character who's "died" several times and lost a bunch of physical stats anyway, there's probably more to be gained than lost, since your hp likely already suck.

The benefits of age are bought through the passage of time. Rapid aging does diddly.....

.......Or, at least, diddly that is good for you.

IMHO.

Raven_Crowking wrote:The benefits of age are bought through the passage of time. Rapid aging does diddly.....

.......Or, at least, diddly that is good for you.

IMHO.

Seconded.

While that may be "realistic," I'm not inclined to follow it, because that particular trap could potentially completely gimp a character (or even kill them from old age) quite quickly, at d12/round on a DC15 save. That's actually what happened in this case, he got 11 and 12 three or four rounds in a row. There's no way to avoid the trap, either, or disarm it. I think in the interest of not making the game impossibly hard just for the hell of it (I'm an aggressive DM, but not a sadist), I'll let them benefit from the mental side some. Perhaps a portion of our wisdom which comes through age has to do with lower hormone levels and a quieter mind, allowing reflection, etc...

beermotor wrote:While that may be "realistic," I'm not inclined to follow it, because that particular trap could potentially completely gimp a character (or even kill them from old age) quite quickly, at d12/round on a DC15 save. That's actually what happened in this case, he got 11 and 12 three or four rounds in a row. There's no way to avoid the trap, either, or disarm it. I think in the interest of not making the game impossibly hard just for the hell of it (I'm an aggressive DM, but not a sadist), I'll let them benefit from the mental side some. Perhaps a portion of our wisdom which comes through age has to do with lower hormone levels and a quieter mind, allowing reflection, etc...

Well, fear no rule, and certainly don't fear anyone else's interpretation of a rule from another game!

That said, I had to deal with the reverse of this situation -- What happens when characters get younger? Good for you up to a point, but once that point is passed, and you are regressing into childhood....?

beermotor wrote: Is this ripe for abuse, though? I can see a smart wizard specifically choosing to age themselves rapidly... maybe you don't gain the benefits if you do that? If that's the case, though, does the trap gain any bonuses? Only penalties? I guess it's a pretty big tradeoff, though... no more spellburning if your physical stats are at 3. However, for a character who's "died" several times and lost a bunch of physical stats anyway, there's probably more to be gained than lost, since your hp likely already suck.

That's funny. There was a Knights of the Dinner Table issue where one of the players had his magic user deliberately hug a ghost so he could age and have his wisdom and intelligence go up. BA (the judge) kept screwing him over every chance he could though because of the loss of strength and constitution.

Anyway, I think if you have a player who wants to deliberately breath the gas, let them. One of the beauties of the DCC system, I think, is that the ability score modifiers are much less impactful than they are in D&D, so I don't think this is a huge opportunity for abuse. If you don't want to reduce or eliminate the Intelligence and Personality boost, you can always slam their Luck, since the gods might be offended by a mortal who games their system for an unfair advantage.

Id do it so that there were negatives but no positives in this case. The pluses seem to imply to me that there there because of experience through time. With the instant aging, there aren't any experiences, no memories to draw from. Certainly they can become more feeble.... but wiser or smarter, I think not. How can they recall all the fumbles and bumbles they've been through? Or all the master tomes they've read through? They aren't there. It's just age in the physical sense, without the passage through time. Old men with young men's minds.

beermotor wrote:Currently playing through Jewels of the Carnifex with my group, and it's a lot of fun from a traps perspective. One character, one of the clerics, hit the age-gas trap to the tune of +49 years... so he's probably about 69-70 now. The module recommends consulting the AD&D DMG as to what effects that might have, has anybody DCC-ified those tables? I was thinking about something like the following, cumulative modifiers:

Young/Adult: no modifiers to stats as rolled
Mature: -1 Str, +1 Int
Old: -1 Agi, -1 Sta, +1 Int, +1 Per
Venerable: -2 Str/Agi/Sta, +2 Int, +1 Per
Ancient: -2 Str/Agi/Sta, +2 Int, +1 Per

The idea being that you get smarter/wiser as you get older, and maybe that helps make you more persuasive, personable, convincing, stronger-willed, whatever. So an ancient character is looking at a cumulative set of modifiers of -5 Str/Agi/Sta, +6 Int, +3 Per.

Is this ripe for abuse, though? I can see a smart wizard specifically choosing to age themselves rapidly... maybe you don't gain the benefits if you do that? If that's the case, though, does the trap gain any bonuses? Only penalties? I guess it's a pretty big tradeoff, though... no more spellburning if your physical stats are at 3. However, for a character who's "died" several times and lost a bunch of physical stats anyway, there's probably more to be gained than lost, since your hp likely already suck.

I tend to agree that wisdom comes with experience, not an older body. But this aside:

I do not know how often you frequent very old people or how you rate venerable/ancient in modern years human terms (I assume 70+), but I would disagree that venerable/ancient get additional INT and PER bonuses with respect to, say, mature people. My parents and their brothers/sisters (20, not counting spouses) are now either dead of old age or in their eighties/nineties, and with all due respect to these people I love/loved, I do not think that they got brighter nor more charismatic in very old age. If anything, I think that the curves of INT and PER should gradually increase and then gradually decrease at some point.

Also, one could argue that PER is affected by your appearance, so although you may become more apt to talk in public and all that stuff, it is questionable whether PER increases or decreases. Likewise for INT: you know more, but how is your memory doing? How quick-minded are you? One aspect of INT might increase, but another decreases.

Personally, I would not touch upon INT/PER bonuses, and would simply apply small(er) penalties to STR/STA as aging occurs.

I think that the adjustments assume a pre-modern society in which older people remain engaged throughout their lives, and thus are able to contribute the benefits of their experiences. In our current, younger-person-oriented society, degradation may be swifter through disuse. Also, as more people survive to older ages, the potential pitfalls of old age are more prevalent...some may also be related to modern technologies and materials.

I have to agree; the bonuses to INT and PER are not really true to the case of actual aging, nor are the penalties to physical stats strong enough to account for the actual deterioration of old age.

If we're going to assume pre-modern aging, then we'll have to account for the greater ravages of a harder life (more wear and tear, more exposure to things such as diseases which weren't then treatable, bodily parasites, etc.) which I would argue doesn't make them any better off physically or mentally at all. There's a reason people died earlier, had terrible rates of infant mortality, etc. Sure, people live longer these days, but the quality of life of modern man in later life is also better too (to a point anyway). Historically, people aged much, much more rapidly, and that's evident even looking back only a handful of generations.

Also, contributing the benefits of experiences is not the same thing as being much more intelligent or personable; even the most belligerent, uncouth git can tell someone to do something differently.

I'd go with:

Young/Adult: no modifiers to stats as rolled
Mature: -1 Str/Agi/Sta, +1 Int
Old: -1 Str/Agi/Sta, +1 Int
Venerable: -1 Str/Agi/Sta, -1 Int, -1 Per
Ancient: -2 Str/Agi/Sta, -2 Int, -1 Per

Modifiers are cumulative, so an Ancient individual has -5 Str/Agi/Sta, -1 Int, and -2 Per compared to the stats originally rolled; time is not kind.

As it stands, with your mods, an ancient old man who was of normal intellect and personability (INT 11, PER 11) in his youth, would be a charming genius in his dotage (INT 17, PER 14). To that I'd say, "Nope." Advanced age should actually undo the benefits of life experience somewhat, and given how cantankerous and set in our ways we become as we age (not to mention the impact on bearing and appearance) Personality should also suffer somewhat too.

Colin

Keep in mind that the 1e rules actually ravaged you with diseases and parasites as your character aged through play.

I think it's easier just to bundle up all the impacts into the mods like above; much faster to apply.

I think folks should just be happy we don't apply real historical life expectancies to characters, especially when you consider that for much of human history, living past 30 was unusual (and if you managed that, even rarer to reach 50-60).

Colin

Colin wrote:I think it's easier just to bundle up all the impacts into the mods like above; much faster to apply.

No doubt. I just wanted to point out that there was a variable amount of parasitic infection and disease in the game from which those modifiers come. I.e., I don't think that the modifiers are off because Gary didn't consider what ravages disease and worms might cause. If anything, he spent too much effort detailing the horrible things that might happen when you crawl through swamps and sewers!

An elegant system is fine. A variable system might be more fun for the truly twisted judge. For example:

Young/Adult: no modifiers to stats as rolled
Mature: -(1d3-1) Str/Agi/Sta, +(1d3-1) Int
Old: -(1d3-1) Str/Agi/Sta, +(1d4-2) Int
Venerable: -(1d3-1) Str/Agi/Sta, -(1d3-2) Int*, -(1d3-2) Per*
Ancient: -1d3 Str/Agi/Sta, -(1d3-1) Int, -(1d3-1) Per

* This may end up a bonus, if the die roll on the 1d3 is a "1". (1-2 = -1; subtracting a negative number adds the absolute value of that number, so that if a "1" is rolled, a +1 bonus is gained). **

** I am sure someone can explain this more succinctly/clearly than I just did.

Raven_Crowking wrote:If anything, he spent too much effort detailing the horrible things that might happen when you crawl through swamps and sewers!

That reminds me of a documentary I saw recently on the drainage and sewer system of Mexico City. They had to send the guy down into the murky depths in a fully-sealed diving suit (almost NBC style) just because the sheer virulence of the water would otherwise have infected him with all manner of vile diseases. The guy had to unblock things from the pumping system, including finding things like entire decomposing horse carcasses.

Raven_Crowking wrote:An elegant system is fine. A variable system might be more fun for the truly twisted judge. For example:

Young/Adult: no modifiers to stats as rolled
Mature: -(1d3-1) Str/Agi/Sta, +(1d3-1) Int
Old: -(1d3-1) Str/Agi/Sta, +(1d4-2) Int
Venerable: -(1d3-1) Str/Agi/Sta, -(1d3-2) Int*, -(1d3-2) Per*
Ancient: -1d3 Str/Agi/Sta, -(1d3-1) Int, -(1d3-1) Per

* This may end up a bonus, if the die roll on the 1d3 is a "1". (1-2 = -1; subtracting a negative number adds the absolute value of that number, so that if a "1" is rolled, a +1 bonus is gained). **

** I am sure someone can explain this more succinctly/clearly than I just did.

Nah, that's clear, mate. Unlike sewer water.

Colin

in the DCC book, on page 391 result 28 there is "the wizening". It gives a simple way to deal with aging, I'd recommend this over the complicated stuff. The whole book is full of little insights like this that the index doesn't reference. Don't go grabbing the ol dnd books when you have the DCC book to do the job for ya.

This is in the undead critical table. I hope the Carnifax guy has a copy handy.

Mr Colin is excellent with the random numbers, I'd use his for sure.

I think that there are two scenarios here, each with somewhat different outcomes:
(1) A character naturally progresses through the aging process.
(2) A character rapidly progresses through the aging process.

If it's a natural aging scenario Colin's numbers look great, but in the case of a person rapidly aging through some non-natural means I can see the body breaking down physically but see no reason for the mind to get sharper.

Watch the old Star Trek episode THE DEADLY YEARS for inspiration. Kirk and Spock and McCoy are exposed to some funky radiation that makes them age rapidly. Their bodies get frail, their minds wander, they get grumpy. I don't see a lot of gain from this process, but I see a lot of downside.

Basically if a player is intentionally aging in order to try to take advantage of a rule, then the rule needs to be tweaked.

Just my two coppers on the thing.

Hey, its your game, so do whatever you want. But IMHO, its experience & learning as you age that gives the bonus. You lose that with rapid magical aging. Aging from a Ghost, or something similar, should be a penalty, something to be feared. Not a bonus....

reverenddak wrote:Mr Colin is excellent with the random numbers, I'd use his for sure.

Me too. Wish I'd come up with it myself!

finarvyn wrote:If it's a natural aging scenario Colin's numbers look great, but in the case of a person rapidly aging through some non-natural means I can see the body breaking down physically but see no reason for the mind to get sharper.

I agree absolutely. I'd put together something like:

DCC AGING RULES
As characters naturally age they gain somewhat in experience and hard-won wisdom, but their bodies weaken, stricken by illness and the natural ravages of time. If fortunate enough to reach truly advanced age, even mental faculties falter and begin to fail, undoing the benefits age once granted as dotage sets in.

The following rules present modifiers to a character's Ability scores as they reach certain broad categories of age. These modifiers are cumulative, so an Ancient individual has -5 Str/Agi/Sta, -1 Int, and -2 Per compared to the Ability scores originally rolled; time is not a kind mistress.

If a character is aged with unnatural celerity, typically via supernatural means, they do not gain the benefits of increased Intelligence at the Mature and Old stages; these bonuses represent experience and wisdom gained over time. They do, however, suffer all of the penalties inflicted by age as their bodies are ravaged and in later stages of accelerated aging, their minds also.

Two options are presented here for Judges to use as desired. The first presents static modifiers, these having the advantage of being quick and easy to apply. The second presents random modifiers, these having the advantage of making aging less predictable in its impact on the individual.

[insert my aging modifier table here]

[insert RC's aging modifier table here]

cheers!
Colin

I completely agree with the above. The only thing I could see differing is how you look at the magic that is aging them and if that would make the user smarter etc... i guess magical aging makes me think of lichdom so the possibility for stats to go up and make sense is there. Id also consider things like sure your intelligence went up but now you move 10-15" slower because of deterioration. Theres a lot you can do to push players away from the choice to abuse.

I like to make my players cry from time to time but unless someone was REALLY being a $%$% I wouldn't place a trap like that in my game. Sure,kill them,torture them or heck even make them fear but Don't frigging bore them with aging(unless its to death).

It's no fun(unless it is).

I might age them to 90 and let them squirm but its gonna have a time limit OR some way to break the enchantment. Perhaps even one that makes them squirm even more. Maybe he is permanently aged to 90 but discovers that by killing he temporary reverts back for a day.

I dunno...unless the player brought this on by bad play or his own doing....I wouldn't force this on him.

I kill character every day but that's the name of the game. It's the same with turning them into the opposite sex. I would only do that to those that it wouldn't ruin the fun for them.

This sounds so unlike me and it's actually a little startling. My players call me the loveable Killer DM for a reason.

Guess im just getting soft.

If you don't like the idea of such a trap, at least the thread has helped you avoid that official module (Jewels of the Carnifex), though it'd be easy to simply replace or ignore that trap in an otherwise fun module.

Colin

Really? I love traps like that as a player and as a DM. I have fond memories as a kid reading about undead in the old monster manuals and how they would age those they touched and I always thought that was a really cool and powerful side effect. but to each DM their own I suppose.