DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by thogard » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:42 am

Raven_Crowking wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:44 pm
By RAW, a Halfling fighting with two weapons automatically hits and crits on a 16. Armor Class be damned!
I stand corrected. And, that's awesome!

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Judge_Yossarian » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:10 pm

Raven_Crowking wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:44 pm
By RAW, a Halfling fighting with two weapons automatically hits and crits on a 16. Armor Class be damned!
But what about an unnatural 16? For example, my halfling with +2 STR rolls a 14, and gets +2, for a total of 16. I call that a crit if it hits, but not an auto-hit. That's how I got such a high percentage in my earlier post. The rules seem to be ambiguous on that point, only mentioning warrior expanded threat ranges but not bonuses to rolls.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Vort » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:36 pm

My understanding is the intent of crits are that they be natural. With the default case, only a nat 20 crits (not a modified roll to get 20); logically follows that only a nat 16 would crit in the Halfling's case and natural rolls in the expanded crit range for a Warrior. Allowing modified rolls to crit takes away some of the rush from rolling that number, especially if you're allowed to burn Luck to modify that roll thus guaranteeing a crit.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by GnomeBoy » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:49 am

Yeah. Natural dice results are what you’re looking for, for crits, fumbles, & Deeds.

Luck burn can raise the total result, perhaps turning a miss into a hit, but you can’t buy a crit (by RAW).
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Raven_Crowking » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:59 am

Judge_Yossarian wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:10 pm
Raven_Crowking wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:44 pm
By RAW, a Halfling fighting with two weapons automatically hits and crits on a 16. Armor Class be damned!
But what about an unnatural 16? For example, my halfling with +2 STR rolls a 14, and gets +2, for a total of 16. I call that a crit if it hits, but not an auto-hit. That's how I got such a high percentage in my earlier post. The rules seem to be ambiguous on that point, only mentioning warrior expanded threat ranges but not bonuses to rolls.
Page 60:

"Unlike other characters, when fighting with two weapons, a halfling scores a crit and automatic hit on any roll of a natural 16."

(emphasis mine)
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by BanjoJohn » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:22 pm

Yeah, I said that last page. hehe. Hmmm. Maybe halflings should be allowed to burn luck to get a critical hit? Might make them better at higher levels.

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Pesky » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:55 pm

I’m super late to this party, but I figure I’ll still throw in a few coppers.

In most cases, the halfling is perhaps not as an inspiring combatant as the warrior or dwarf, but not all cases. For those interested in the efficacy of the halfling combatant, you may find the following noteworthy:
Given that "adjusted AC" is target's AC minus your to-hit bonus, you are more likely to get a hit attacking with two weapons (than with one) if:
1. you are a halfling, and adj. AC is less than 14 or greater than 18.
2. your agility is greater than 17, and adj. AC is less than 17; note that crit. chances are reduced for warriors, however. 3. you are not a halfling, your agility is 16-17, and adj. AC is less than 14.
4. you are not a halfling, your agility is 12-15, and adj. AC is less than 13.
5. you are not a halfling, your agility is 9-11, and adj. AC is less than 10.
6. you are not a halfling, your agility is less than 9, and adj. AC is less than 7.

Most importantly, with regards to #1, if you’re up against something with an AC so large that your party must autohit to damage it, the halfling will hit at least once per round 12% of the time. Everyone else, 5% of the time. Details here:
http://spellburn.com/2016/01/17/episode ... rry-olson/
(See the link for “ Dual-Wielding Probabilities from Spellburn Episode 26”)
In short, don’t underestimate the autohit on nat 16.

I empathize with the class not meeting some expectations. If I were to modify them, I’d probably give them:
1. D24 or d30 saving throws...
2. And perhaps “halfling fury”:
Halfling Fury: if a halfling successfully hits a single target with both of the round’s attacks, they can burn 1 point of luck to immediately attack the target again. If that hits, they can burn 2 points of luck to attack the target again. And so on, until they miss or run out of luck.

With that being said, I don’t want to modify them. That class holds a soft spot in my heart. I always have fun playing them, and I always have fun judging them...especially when the associated player is somewhat “judicious” with how (and on whom) they spend their luck.

I was fortunate enough for my first DCC con game to be at Goodman’s table play testing a funnel (that unfortunately never saw the light of day). Of my 4 PCs, 3 died pretty quickly, but my halfling barber survived! With twin razors he made Sweeney Todd look like a pansy! He dominated until the final encounter, when he lost a Will save and cut out his own heart. C’est la vie.

Thanks everyone on this thread for a fun read!
Terry Olson

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by BanjoJohn » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:14 am

There are two "events", each has a 1/16 chance to happen. 256 total combined outcomes, 15/256 for first attack to crit, 15/256 for the second attack to crit, 1/256 for both to crit. 11.7% for either the first or second attack to crit, 0.39% for both to crit.

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Jim Skach » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:23 am

Pesky wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:55 pm
I was fortunate enough for my first DCC con game to be at Goodman’s table play testing a funnel (that unfortunately never saw the light of day). Of my 4 PCs, 3 died pretty quickly, but my halfling barber survived! With twin razors he made Sweeney Todd look like a pansy! He dominated until the final encounter, when he lost a Will save and cut out his own heart.
This needs to be explored further - perhaps at GaryCon.

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Pesky » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:54 am

@BanjoJohn: Exactly. That’s where my 12% to autohit at least once per round comes from.

@Jim Skatch: Yeah, ask Joseph; I will not be at Gary. Stephen Newton was also at the table, as was Steve Bean. That’s the limit of my memory, I’m afraid.
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Jim Skach » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:11 am

Pesky wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:54 am
@Jim Skach: Yeah, ask Joseph; I will not be at Gary. Stephen Newton was also at the table, as was Steve Bean. That’s the limit of my memory, I’m afraid.
:(

Joseph won't be there either, last I heard...

:( :(

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by Jim Skach » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:11 am

Pesky wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:55 pm
I’m super late to this party, but I figure I’ll still throw in a few coppers.

In most cases, the halfling is perhaps not as an inspiring combatant as the warrior or dwarf, but not all cases. For those interested in the efficacy of the halfling combatant, you may find the following noteworthy:
Given that "adjusted AC" is target's AC minus your to-hit bonus, you are more likely to get a hit attacking with two weapons (than with one) if:
1. you are a halfling, and adj. AC is less than 14 or greater than 18.
2. your agility is greater than 17, and adj. AC is less than 17; note that crit. chances are reduced for warriors, however. 3. you are not a halfling, your agility is 16-17, and adj. AC is less than 14.
4. you are not a halfling, your agility is 12-15, and adj. AC is less than 13.
5. you are not a halfling, your agility is 9-11, and adj. AC is less than 10.
6. you are not a halfling, your agility is less than 9, and adj. AC is less than 7.

Most importantly, with regards to #1, if you’re up against something with an AC so large that your party must autohit to damage it, the halfling will hit at least once per round 12% of the time. Everyone else, 5% of the time. Details here:
http://spellburn.com/2016/01/17/episode ... rry-olson/
(See the link for “ Dual-Wielding Probabilities from Spellburn Episode 26”)
In short, don’t underestimate the autohit on nat 16.

I empathize with the class not meeting some expectations. If I were to modify them, I’d probably give them:
1. D24 or d30 saving throws...
2. And perhaps “halfling fury”:
Halfling Fury: if a halfling successfully hits a single target with both of the round’s attacks, they can burn 1 point of luck to immediately attack the target again. If that hits, they can burn 2 points of luck to attack the target again. And so on, until they miss or run out of luck.

With that being said, I don’t want to modify them. That class holds a soft spot in my heart. I always have fun playing them, and I always have fun judging them...especially when the associated player is somewhat “judicious” with how (and on whom) they spend their luck.

I was fortunate enough for my first DCC con game to be at Goodman’s table play testing a funnel (that unfortunately never saw the light of day). Of my 4 PCs, 3 died pretty quickly, but my halfling barber survived! With twin razors he made Sweeney Todd look like a pansy! He dominated until the final encounter, when he lost a Will save and cut out his own heart. C’est la vie.

Thanks everyone on this thread for a fun read!
This is why I love Terry and wish he were in my gaming group....

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by DivineWannabe » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:49 pm

Weisenwolf wrote:
Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:52 am

Well to start with if the Halfling already has 16+ DEX it’s not much of an improvement at all; no other skill has it's effect reduced in this way.

If you're generating characters as the book suggests, then how often are you going to have a halfling with 16+ Agility? Not very often at all!
I just ran a simulation using Purple Sorceror's 0-level character generator, and got exactly ZERO halflings with 16+ Agility out of ONE HUNDRED randomly generated 0-levels. (In fact, out of those 100 samples, I only had TWO characters of ANY race that had a Agility of 16+.)
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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by BanjoJohn » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:44 am

DivineWannabe wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:49 pm
Weisenwolf wrote:
Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:52 am

Well to start with if the Halfling already has 16+ DEX it’s not much of an improvement at all; no other skill has it's effect reduced in this way.

If you're generating characters as the book suggests, then how often are you going to have a halfling with 16+ Agility? Not very often at all!
I just ran a simulation using Purple Sorceror's 0-level character generator, and got exactly ZERO halflings with 16+ Agility out of ONE HUNDRED randomly generated 0-levels. (In fact, out of those 100 samples, I only had TWO characters of ANY race that had a Agility of 16+.)
Yeah sometimes I wonder, speculate, theorize, that the purple sorceror generator is broken, but I know that random numbers are random. I just never seem to randomly get a character with more (+) stats than (-) stats lol.

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Re: DCC Halfling only class that's worse than Basic D&D source

Post by DivineWannabe » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:45 pm

Well, the ones I generated on Purple Sorceror seem to be generally in line with the 0-level characters I have rolled by hand. I cannot say I have rolled over a hundred by hand, but I did roll 20 by hand a few months back.
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