Goodman Games

Dwarf seems to have a rough time when compared to the fighter

Fighter
HPs d12
Better Crit Dice
Faster Crit Table accumulation
Better selection of weapon proficiency
Level added to Initiative

Dwarf
d10 HPs
Better Saves
Sword and Board

But there's the rub, unless you create a dwarf that uses a sword and shield, the Dwarf is a poor relation compared to human fighter

I was considering swapping around the d12 and d10 hit points to better balance the two classes. I realise DCC doesn't cater to game balance as much as more recent editions of D&D do, but the differences between the above two classes are quite marked in my opinion.

Infravision and the ability to smell gold and gems are winners at my table.

I think that the assumption is that dwarves have an edge over humans when doing "dwarf stuff" like detecting sloping passages and new construction, stuff like that. Also, historically, RPGs have given extra edges to human characters because most folks seem to want to play non-humans.

Having said that, give your system a try. Swapping HD type is a really quick tweak, and if it doesn't work it's easy to undo.

What's a Dwarf Fighter?

Seriously... even if I did give a whit about balance, I wouldn't agree with your assessment: You leave off important features for Dwarves like the ability to see unaided in the dark (most dungeons tend to be dark places), smell gems & gold (which will lead to better arms & equipment), better (or at least more; Occupation +plus+ Underground) skills, and don't (pardon the pun) sell Sword & Board short because it's truly a big deal. I'd leave it be, but FNR & all that...

*cough*dwarvesrule*cough*

EDIT: sigh -- Yeah, what R_C & Fin said!

Yes, I had reservations about adding 'Fighter' after 'Dwarf'. But in my book, dwarves are known for their toughness. Perhaps that d12 swap will be enough

Thane wrote:Dwarf seems to have a rough time when compared to the fighter

Fighter
HPs d12
Better Crit Dice
Faster Crit Table accumulation
Better selection of weapon proficiency
Level added to Initiative

Dwarf
d10 HPs
Better Saves
Sword and Board

But there's the rub, unless you create a dwarf that uses a sword and shield, the Dwarf is a poor relation compared to human fighter

I was considering swapping around the d12 and d10 hit points to better balance the two classes. I realise DCC doesn't cater to game balance as much as more recent editions of D&D do, but the differences between the above two classes are quite marked in my opinion.

In the spirit of distinguishing the dwarf from the fighter, I would look into giving the dwarf other benefits that the fighter does not have, and leaving the fighter unchanged. For example, one or more of the following:

- level (or half-level) added to fortitude saves (or to all saves)
- immunity to poison
- additional hit points at level 1 only (instead of increasing d10 to d12 per level) for example an additional 1d7 at level 1, which would increase survivability of the class at low level - an excellent benefit for an average 3.5 hit point bonus at levefl 1, but distinct from the average 1 HP more per level that the fighter gets. On the long run, the fighter still has the upper hand, but more level 1 dwarves are likely to survive.
- craftmanship: capable of crafting one magic weapon or armor at a given time in his career, when the story fits, e.g. he needs to quest for it or if the game points to a good time, it happens then.
- etc...

TheoryHammer meets "game balance", and there is even a daemonslayer image! What system are we talking about here?

It's sure difficult to fight in the dark with that two-handed weapon...

Maybe just allow max HP at level 1 just for dwarves?

The only downside I see for Dwarves are the slower movement speed; which slows even more while wearing armor. Dwarves are traditionally portrayed wearing chain haurbreks. The movement speed penalty shouldn't apply to dwarves.

Also, dwarves are portrayed with axes and hammers; especially the two handed variety. That's not sword & board.

I'm contemplating making it axe or hammer & board and giving some form of bonus, or removing a penalty, for using thetwo handed axes & hammers. I just haven't figured one out yet.

marshal kt wrote:I'm contemplating making it axe or hammer & board and giving some form of bonus...

Just to be clear, "Sword and Board" doesn't have to involve swords -- it's any weapon.

I let the dwarves in my campaign fight with a 2-handed weapons. If they do they can make their "sword and board" attack with the hilt of that weapon.

GnomeBoy wrote:

marshal kt wrote:I'm contemplating making it axe or hammer & board and giving some form of bonus...

Just to be clear, "Sword and Board" doesn't have to involve swords -- it's any weapon.

Well, that's news to me. I'm an Ex-SCAdian and sword and board meant sword and shield. not weapon and shield.

Does it say that in the dwarf description and I over-looked it or is a personal or general consensous sort of thing?

marshal kt wrote:

GnomeBoy wrote:

marshal kt wrote:I'm contemplating making it axe or hammer & board and giving some form of bonus...

Just to be clear, "Sword and Board" doesn't have to involve swords -- it's any weapon.

Well, that's news to me. I'm an Ex-SCAdian and sword and board meant sword and shield. not weapon and shield.

Does it say that in the dwarf description and I over-looked it or is a personal or general consensous sort of thing?

"Dwarves excel at fighting with a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other. When fighting with a shield, a dwarf always gains a shield bash as a second attack."

Sword & Board is just the name of the mechanic. When fighting with a shield, a dwarf always gains a shield bash as a second attack.

So I over-looked it. Thanks.

No worries.

Please critique my revamped Dwarf

Dwarf seems to have a rough time when compared to the fighter. Compare:

Fighter
HPs d12
Better Crit Dice
Faster Crit Table advancement
Larger Crit Threat range
Better selection of weapon proficiencies
Level added to Initiative

Dwarf
d10 HPs
Better Saves
One handed weapon and shield specialists

So unless you create a dwarf that uses a one handed weapon and shield, the Dwarf is a poor relation compared to human fighter

Fix
- Swap around the d12 and d10 hit points
- Add half your level to Fortitude saves
- Add half level to magic that assails the mind
- Add half level to poison and disease saves
- Re roll hit points twice at each level and take highest total

Also; allow dwarves to fight with 2-handed weapons and to use their "sword and board" speciality by using the hilt/butt of that weapon.


For the record, the two handed weapon used as a sort of 'sword and board' variety is not mine, nor is the half level added to Fortitude.

I like simple. I feel your design is a bit complex with the half-level saves for some specific stuff such as mind-affecting effects, poison and disease, at least for what that brings to the table, because it's going to be relatively rare that the dwarf has to save vs. those things, to have specific small modifiers (only +2 until level 5) to remember in those rare instances makes it too complex for the result IMHO.

Also, poison and disease saves are going to be FORT saves. Does the dwarf then get double the bonus (once for FORT and once for disease/poison) for those conditions?

I also think that nerfing one class is likelly to make players of that class unhappy. I'd leave the fighter class unchanged.

I like the idea of allowing the dwarf the second attack anyway even if he doesn't use a shield. I's simply allow that all the time (again, simple).

Looking at your desired outcome, I'd suggest:

1) max HPs at level 1. Normal HPs after and d10 as usual.
2) Level bonus to FORT saves (make the bonus count)
3) immunity to poison
4) "shield bash" attack is renamed as "bash" attack and is allowed at all times, even without a shield - the story can be told as a head butt, using the shaft of your weapon, smashing your opponent's face with your fist, etc...
5) no nerfing the fighter class (I think this is the most important point of all)

I think this is plenty. Remember that the dwarf gets a second chance to make his deed work with his secondary attack, this is an advantage compared to the figther that I don't think was mentioned above.

Skyscraper wrote:I like simple. I feel your design is a bit complex with the half-level saves for some specific stuff such as mind-affecting effects, poison and disease, at least for what that brings to the table, because it's going to be relatively rare that the dwarf has to save vs. those things, to have specific small modifiers (only +2 until level 5) to remember in those rare instances makes it too complex for the result IMHO.

Also, poison and disease saves are going to be FORT saves. Does the dwarf then get double the bonus (once for FORT and once for disease/poison) for those conditions?

I also think that nerfing one class is likelly to make players of that class unhappy. I'd leave the fighter class unchanged.

I like the idea of allowing the dwarf the second attack anyway even if he doesn't use a shield. I's simply allow that all the time (again, simple).

Looking at your desired outcome, I'd suggest:

1) max HPs at level 1. Normal HPs after and d10 as usual.
2) Level bonus to FORT saves (make the bonus count)
3) immunity to poison
4) "shield bash" attack is renamed as "bash" attack and is allowed at all times, even without a shield - the story can be told as a head butt, using the shaft of your weapon, smashing your opponent's face with your fist, etc...
5) no nerfing the fighter class (I think this is the most important point of all)

I think this is plenty. Remember that the dwarf gets a second chance to make his deed work with his secondary attack, this is an advantage compared to the figther that I don't think was mentioned above.

Thanks Skyscraper, good points raised, especially the fact that dwarves basically get two attempts at a Deed action

I'm thinking of going with...

- Add level to Fortitude saves
- Re roll hit points twice at each level and take highest total

Also I really like your idea of using any attack as a sword and board type of attack - makes it much more flexible

I've posted it before, but here's my DCC dwarf... either very defensive or very damaging, but always with extra hps and a lower Deed Die.

DWARF
Dwarves are doughty fighters, and legendary Carousers. Dwarves can smell gold and see it in the darkest dark when all else are shadow and form. Dwarves are mostly colorblind. Dwarfenvision is black and white except for gold.. There are no dwarf women. Dwarfs are said to be hewn from the roots of the earth, and their beards are like the moss that grows upon a stone that does not roll.
Hit Dice: 1d12
Level Deeds Critical Dice Threat Action Dice
1 +d2 1d12/III (20) 1d20
2 +d3 1d14/III (20) 1d20
3 +d4 1d16/III (20) 1d20
4 +d5 1d20/IV (20) 1d20
5 +d6 1d24/IV (19) 1d20 + d14
Deed Dice apply to Attack, Damage and Fumble rolls.
MIGHTY DEEDS OF ARMS must be declared before the attack roll. 3+ = Success!
Dwarves are slow. Speed: 20’ Speed is not affected by armor.
The Sturdy Dwarf: Do NOT have a 2nd Shield Bash attack, instead Dwarves enjoy
+3 AC bonus for using a Shield, or, +1d for a 2 handed weapon (ex: War Axe d14)
+2 to Fortitude Saving Throws
Dwarves are legendary Carousers and may CAROUSE without mishap up to CL+Will.
Dwarves may smell gold at 100’, and may roll a d20 for gold related Perception checks.
Dwarves are experts in masonry, mining and metallurgy, rolling a d20 in all such situations.
With tools, Dwarves make wondrous things.

Thane wrote: I'm thinking of going with...

- Add level to Fortitude saves
- Re roll hit points twice at each level and take highest total

Also I really like your idea of using any attack as a sword and board type of attack - makes it much more flexible

I think these are simple and straightforward modifications to the class that simply increase the survivability of the dwarf. They have the advantage of requiring no extra work from the player during games, since the two bonuses are passive and always applicable; and presumably any dwarf is going to shield bash anyway, so making it a generic bash attack simply allows the dwarf to fight with something else than a shield.

I don't know if I'd change the dwarf class if I were a judge, but I'd certainly buy into this if you were my judge.

The comparison does not include infravision or the ability to smell gold and gems which, in the games I run at least, are big advantages. That the extra shield attack is in addition to attacks from Action Dice also makes it better than it might appear at first blush.

That said, Let the Rules Bend to You!

caveman wrote:I've posted it before, but here's my DCC dwarf... either very defensive or very damaging, but always with extra hps and a lower Deed Die.

DWARF
Dwarves are doughty fighters, and legendary Carousers. Dwarves can smell gold and see it in the darkest dark when all else are shadow and form. Dwarves are mostly colorblind. Dwarfenvision is black and white except for gold.. There are no dwarf women. Dwarfs are said to be hewn from the roots of the earth, and their beards are like the moss that grows upon a stone that does not roll.
Hit Dice: 1d12
Level Deeds Critical Dice Threat Action Dice
1 +d2 1d12/III (20) 1d20
2 +d3 1d14/III (20) 1d20
3 +d4 1d16/III (20) 1d20
4 +d5 1d20/IV (20) 1d20
5 +d6 1d24/IV (19) 1d20 + d14
Deed Dice apply to Attack, Damage and Fumble rolls.
MIGHTY DEEDS OF ARMS must be declared before the attack roll. 3+ = Success!
Dwarves are slow. Speed: 20’ Speed is not affected by armor.
The Sturdy Dwarf: Do NOT have a 2nd Shield Bash attack, instead Dwarves enjoy
+3 AC bonus for using a Shield, or, +1d for a 2 handed weapon (ex: War Axe d14)
+2 to Fortitude Saving Throws
Dwarves are legendary Carousers and may CAROUSE without mishap up to CL+Will.
Dwarves may smell gold at 100’, and may roll a d20 for gold related Perception checks.
Dwarves are experts in masonry, mining and metallurgy, rolling a d20 in all such situations.
With tools, Dwarves make wondrous things.

I like the carousing and the related story in this description.

However, on the mechanics side, I feel you mostly nerfed the dwarf. Do you agree, and did you feel the class was too powerful?

• (-) Loss of shield bash attack is huge, if only because the dwarf loses an additional chance each round for his deed to work.
• (-) Deed/attack/damage die reduced. This reduction is signicant. It means the dwarf hits less often, deals less damage, and succeeds on deeds less often (as a player, that would be the biggest deal for me) - a level 1 dwarf cannot accomplish a mighty deed at all.
• (+) The addition of the option of +3 AC or +1d to two-handed weapon damage.
• (+) d12 HPs instead of d10.

Looking at the above, there appears to be two plusses and two minuses, but let's take a look: the reduction to the deed die alone completely negages the increase in damage die if a two-handed weapon is used (or the option of the +1 AC if a shield is used), in addition to decreasing the deed success probability and the to-hit probability (thus further reducing damage). The balance of those two is a clear loss. So you have this loss, combined with the loss of the shield bash; the two of which, IMO, are not balanced by an increase from d10 to d12 in HPs.

I see the mechanical changes as changing the dwarf rather marginally story-wise, except to make them slightly tougher and equally prone to use a shield or a two-handed weapon. However, you give up the story of the dwarf succeeding on mighty deeds more often (both due to the deed die reduction and the removal of shield bash), which is a really fun mechanic of the game that spices up combat for players of the dwarf class. You're essentially hitting on their most important feature. As a player, I don't really care about a d10 or a d12 in my HPs. I'd most certainly care to have my deeds so seriously affected however.

Am I missing anything?

If not, I'm curious, what prompted those changes?

Hmmm, interesting thoughts. My changes are mostly to make dwarfs more like my own vision of them, which is tough, hard to kill, simple. I never thought they were trumped by the Warrior as much as unsatisfying in play.
Basically, in my play experience, the shield bash made the dwarf into a two-weapon fighter, but not a terribly effective one. The d14 didn't hit often, despite alot of extra rolling. The dwarf was being played by a new player and the extra attack thing seemed to go against type. I'd rather have the dwarf be super hard to kill than a dervish type. For what its worth, I don't really like the halfling double weapon fighter type either, it seems too particular a fighting style to assign to a whole race. (I added an "Advantage" attack with light missile weapons)
I guess I lowered the Deed Die to keep the Warrior as a superior weapon while the dwarf either hits harder or is harder to hit. Maybe it is too hefty a trade-off, but as others have pointed out, there is the Gold Smelling, and the Dwarfenvision.
(As it happens, I did the same thing with my Barbarian class, lowered the Deed Die by one step and raised the HD to d14. I've made alot of tweaks to my fave rpg... )

caveman wrote:Hmmm, interesting thoughts. My changes are mostly to make dwarfs more like my own vision of them, which is tough, hard to kill, simple. I never thought they were trumped by the Warrior as much as unsatisfying in play.
Basically, in my play experience, the shield bash made the dwarf into a two-weapon fighter, but not a terribly effective one. The d14 didn't hit often, despite alot of extra rolling. The dwarf was being played by a new player and the extra attack thing seemed to go against type. I'd rather have the dwarf be super hard to kill than a dervish type. For what its worth, I don't really like the halfling double weapon fighter type either, it seems too particular a fighting style to assign to a whole race. (I added an "Advantage" attack with light missile weapons)
I guess I lowered the Deed Die to keep the Warrior as a superior weapon while the dwarf either hits harder or is harder to hit. Maybe it is too hefty a trade-off, but as others have pointed out, there is the Gold Smelling, and the Dwarfenvision.
(As it happens, I did the same thing with my Barbarian class, lowered the Deed Die by one step and raised the HD to d14. I've made alot of tweaks to my fave rpg... )

Have to agree with all of this, especially the part about halflings and two weapon fighting style. I'd much have preferred it if it was an optional fighting style you could opt not to take and not be an inferior halfling fighter because of that decision.

I also can't agree that having the ability to see in the dark and smell gold goes to any length in pacifying my players who dislike the dwarf class as compared to the fighter. I understand the dwarf is a dwarf and not a fighter 'per se', but it still feels nerfed to me. IMHO and YMMV and all that

caveman wrote: I guess I lowered the Deed Die to keep the Warrior as a superior weapon while the dwarf either hits harder or (...)

The problem, as I note above, is that the deed die not only affects the deed, it is also the dwarf's bonus to hit and to damage. So by lowering the deed die, you are going opposite your goal to making him hit harder.

If I understand your concern with the dwarf correctly, my recommendation would be to remove the deed die entirely, and give something new:

- good bonuses to HP (e.g. roll twice, keep highest, as someone else suggested). D10 to D12 changes little really, IMO.
- interesting resistances, e.g. to FORT and immunity to poison
- nifty defensive stances that can be useful in battle (somethign akin to the deed, but usable defensively), e.g. something that allows him to stand his ground, defend nearby allies, total defense for one round that makes him nigh unhittable, perhaps an attack to break rock around him and collapse the ceiling on his opponents
- bonuses to hit (and damage?) to replace the loss of the deed.

******

Sidetrack: In my game, I've removed the halfling, dwarf and elf classes. I modified them into something else, but now that my game is over, I've realized that next time I'll probably ditch them altogether. The first reason is that I dislike the stereotypical tolkien-esque flavor that inevitably (it seems) comes with them; and secondly, I don't like their mechanics. The four base classes each have cool mechanics to make them unique; while the dwarf is like a fighter that smells gold, the elf is like a wizard capable of wielding a sword and the halfling becomes a luck-giving two-weapon fighting machine. To me, halflings should be far from the best fighters, but between their luck and their two-weapon fighting, they are almost up their with the fighter in terms of efficiency.