Alternate Barbarian

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Rostranor
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Alternate Barbarian

Post by Rostranor »

There was some discussion on the Google+ and here about what a Barbarian Class would look like. In light of trying to explain my thoughts I just decided to whip something together. So here is my humble attempt to conceptualize what I was commenting on.

My attempt here was to make the class mechanically different from the other classes, introduce something new, and not have it be a rehash of older D&D versions but have a DCC feel. I also wanted to be slightly generic so I stayed away from Conan imitation, but still making Conan possible.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4HMKDO ... sp=sharing
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Zargon
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Zargon »

Well, for me this is the first barbarian I have seen for DCC. I think you have some good creative elements designed into the iconic class, which is pretty neat, so good work! I like that the barbarian can't wear armor, and that he may have some sort of natural sixth sense ability. I would love to see more submissions of a barbarian class write up to see what other fine elements creative writers have in mind for this class, both creatively and mechanically. Were such a thing to happen a vote could be held to see which one competes the best for third party publication.
At first, I wasn't sure what difference there could be between the 3pp Barbarian and the Warrior class for Dungeon Crawl Classics; that it would come down to player style and depiction, but from what I read I'm beginning to feel there is room for delineation just as the 3pp Paladin class differentiates from both Warrior and Cleric so too can the Barbarian be a separate and purposeful entity.
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cthulhudarren
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by cthulhudarren »

The Orc writeup in one of the issues of Crawl! was to me the barbarian class.
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Zargon
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Zargon »

cthulhudarren wrote:The Orc writeup in one of the issues of Crawl! was to me the barbarian class.
Hmm, that's right I had forgotten about that, perhaps because it didn't really hit the mark for me. I think the Orc (or half-orc) are compatible with the class perhaps more than any other class befits them, but as a race they still do not take 1st place in my mind for the image, behavior, and heritage of the traditional barbarian mythos. If it were an iconoclastic barbarian sure, why not, anything goes. I've seen write ups for gnome barbarians in Dragon before.
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Zargon
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Zargon »

I think this is a pretty good example of what a Barbarian in DCC might look like, good work to whomever did the write up. So, counting the Orc that makes three varieties thus far. It's very interesting to see new ideas like these.

http://skylandgames.wordpress.com/2013/ ... #more-1743
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cthulhudarren
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by cthulhudarren »

Zargon wrote:I think this is a pretty good example of what a Barbarian in DCC might look like, good work to whomever did the write up. So, counting the Orc that makes three varieties thus far. It's very interesting to see new ideas like these.

http://skylandgames.wordpress.com/2013/ ... #more-1743

IMHO it has too many of the abilities of a warrior but with a lot of special extras piled on. I much prefer the Crawl! Orc class as barbarian, which has a simpler rage mechanic. If anything you could have a mighty deeds but limited to feats of strength.
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Skyscraper
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Skyscraper »

To the OP: interesting take on the barbarian flavor-wise, and I like the idea of trying to develop a mechanic of its own for this class. However in the end what I find is that the only thing that the class gets is to roll a die for defense instead of wearing armor. For a player, I don't find that to be very exciting as a class-defining feature. Warriors get mighty deeds, wizards and clerics get magic (plus patrons, spellburn, ...), thieves get all their thief abilities plus luck use plus crits on backstab, and barbarians get... A random AC value. While I'm not necessarily expecting balance between classes, who would want to pick this barbarian over, say, a warrior?

Plus, the random AC is interesting, but makes battles more complex as you need to roll a die each time the barbarian is attacked. Not a terrible thing in itself, but I'd expect the ability to be cool if it requires an additional mechanic.

I would look into developping more class-specific abilities. I haven't read the other takes on the barbarian, but if you're refusing the usual rage or Conan approaches, I think you need to find an archetype that will fit your vision and pick some neat abilities that stem from that archetype. Some ideas that come to mind are damage reduction (as a replacement for random AC), attacks against multiple targets (jump into the fray style), mighty deeds of strength (uproot the tree and throw it on the enemy), intimidation (the roar); and depending on how strong you see the link with nature, perhaps contacting spirits, listening to the winds, etc... I think it depends what type of barbarian you are thinking about: vikings, north-american indians, oriental mountain dwellers, ...? The term "barbarian" is kind of loaded because I doubt that "barbarians" call themselve "barbarians", it's the others that call them that way. What's a barbarian to you? How does the barbarian consider himself, other than a foreigner in the "civilized" lands?
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.
Rostranor
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Rostranor »

I was intentionally trying to avoid class specific add ons so as to avoid the 3e feel to the class. If one were to look at the Warrior class in DCC what class abilities does he have? Mighty Deeds and ....did I tell you about Mighty Deeds? The deed die concept for the warrior is the mechanical essence of the class. It means that there is variable to hit and damage per attack and the potential exists to do crazy stuff with that one roll as well. this is the core mechanical element of the Warrior.

If the Barbarian had Mighty Deeds and all sorts of other stuff then all you are doing is class creep to the RAW. Not giving the barbarian mighty deeds was an attempt to make the barbarian a viable option in his own right, not a replacement for a Warrior. The variable spell and armor class does something mechanically that's different and not that complex. How would the barbarian integrate as a class? Well the d14 for hit points means that he is a meat shield. The variable AC means that the class can soak up some damage or not get hit at all while other members of the party are doing their thing. Not so much a killing machine like the Warrior is, but more the anvil to the Warriors hammer. the gradual attack bonus is not as good as the Warriors but is second best and better than the Clerics. It allows the Barbarian to at least be able to hit back a little more while he is soaking up damage. The spell resistance makes their ability to hold the line as beneficial against magic wielders as sword wielders.

i also think there exists some very cool uses of the Danger Sense as a mechanical device.
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Skyscraper
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Skyscraper »

Rostranor wrote:I was intentionally trying to avoid class specific add ons so as to avoid the 3e feel to the class. If one were to look at the Warrior class in DCC what class abilities does he have? Mighty Deeds and ....did I tell you about Mighty Deeds? The deed die concept for the warrior is the mechanical essence of the class. It means that there is variable to hit and damage per attack and the potential exists to do crazy stuff with that one roll as well. this is the core mechanical element of the Warrior.

If the Barbarian had Mighty Deeds and all sorts of other stuff then all you are doing is class creep to the RAW. Not giving the barbarian mighty deeds was an attempt to make the barbarian a viable option in his own right, not a replacement for a Warrior. The variable spell and armor class does something mechanically that's different and not that complex. How would the barbarian integrate as a class? Well the d14 for hit points means that he is a meat shield. The variable AC means that the class can soak up some damage or not get hit at all while other members of the party are doing their thing. Not so much a killing machine like the Warrior is, but more the anvil to the Warriors hammer. the gradual attack bonus is not as good as the Warriors but is second best and better than the Clerics. It allows the Barbarian to at least be able to hit back a little more while he is soaking up damage. The spell resistance makes their ability to hold the line as beneficial against magic wielders as sword wielders.

i also think there exists some very cool uses of the Danger Sense as a mechanical device.
The comparison with Mighty Deeds was not a suggestion to incorporate that into the class of the barbarian. As i mentioned, I appreciate the attempt at defining a class that will feel different than others mechanically.

By the way, I think that Mighty Deeds being the single core mechanic fo the warrior is fine, it's a big thing. You get to invent each and every round one stunt that has a gradually increasing chance of working and a gradually increasing chance of having a bigger effect. And if the stunt succeeds: well, you blinded or tripped the opponent, or you threw a torch into its gaping maw, or pushed him over the edge of the cliff, or whatever. Something will happen as a consequence.

The variable AC however doesn't mean anything for the player. There will be no gameplay consequence to it. Wearing an armor with a static bonus would have exactly the same effect.

Now, if your intent was to avoid class-specific mechanics altogether (not sure if this is what your reply suggests - it seems to partly), then sure this barbarian will be about RP more than mechanics. That's a fine choice in itself, but I don't think the barbarian would be aligned with the other classes that all offer some mechanical options for the player. The problem lies in the discrepancy IMO.

You argue about the d14 hits points helping to define the class: sure, but DCC provides more to its other classes (they all have a different hit point die, but do you ever hear about that?) . Spells, thief abilities, patrons, mighty deeds, those are features that allows you to do stuff in game and influence the game. a d14 or d12 or d6 hit point die is a static effect, like a +5 bonus, a +2 bonus or a +1 bonus to attack rolls.

This being said, it's true that your proposed Danger Sense provides an interesting mechanic for the class. However, it remains a relatively marginal gameplay element. I feel it's equivalent to, say, one of the thief abilities. I would hope to get something more if I were a player.

Have I provided you with my feedback too bluntly? I remain very respectful of your class design, mind you. Forums are sometimes a tough medium to convey critisism, hopefully you are not offended by mine. Please let me know if my comments are coming across as too harsh, and help me improve in the way I post.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Tortog »

I like the proposed class... but then I like most of the proposed classes that I've read on these types of threads. I'd have no problem using several versions of the same class-type (Barbarions, or Half-orcs, for example) in the same game. I'd simply explain away the differences by the fact that they'd be from different tribes/regions. :D I also like the inclusion of the wilderness skills, but then I'm biased. I proposed something similar with my Ranger prototype. The random die in that case applied to woodland and survival skills and stealth checks. FWIW, I think that write up is linked somewhere on the resources page along with the early work I did with tribal warriors, and the bard class collaboration I worked on w/ Ducaster. Of the three the Ranger is the only one I still use.

If I were to utilize the proposed barbarian class though, I think I'd tweak the random dice. Something like this maybe:
1d3, 1d4, 1d5, 1d6, 1d7+1, 1d8+1, 1d10+1, 1d12+2, 1d14+2, 1d16+3


Here's my latest draft of the Half-orc class I've been working on.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8iHPun ... sp=sharing

Not sure how it compares to others of this type, but the players I've given this to have enjoyed playing it.
Rostranor
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Rostranor »

Skyscraper wrote:
Have I provided you with my feedback too bluntly? I remain very respectful of your class design, mind you. Forums are sometimes a tough medium to convey critisism, hopefully you are not offended by mine. Please let me know if my comments are coming across as too harsh, and help me improve in the way I post.

Totally fine man no worries. Feedback helps me to look at things from diferent perspectives and see holes or weakness.
Rostranor
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Rostranor »

Tortog,
I dig the low INT impact on the rage.

As for the variable die, one of the reasons why i did it they way I did was so that as the level increased both the minimum and maximum range increased.
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Tortog »

@Rostranor> Thanx, and I totally get that the minimums increase with level. It makes a lot of sense for the character build, but the progression of the minimums isn't what bothered me. It just seems odd that a 9th level barbarian has a randomization factor of +3 to +21 and the 10th level version only gets +4 to +16. Maybe switching the die types would work as well... the 9th level character could get a random factor of 3d5, that would bring things back into statistical harmony too. :mrgreen:
Rostranor
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Rostranor »

Good catch, that was a data entry mistake on my part. The range should not be better at 9th.
Exedor
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by Exedor »

There is a rage mechanic already in DCC which could be adapted for Barbarian or Half-orc. It is on pg. 84 and 85 on Crit Tables IV and V; it is defined in the footnote on pg. 82. It is basically a spellburn-like mechanic (rageburn?) where the character can burn Int or Per to gain a combat advantage. The rule as written does not work for low levels and needs adaptation but I like the mechanic; basically it is spellburn for a melee focused class. A few ideas:

Bonus to a will save, covering to some extent to what would otherwise be a very poor will save progression
Additional will save to a mind-altering effect if the first is failed
Increase crit range after the die is rolled, 1 point of range per ability score burned
Gain another action die, d14 at lv. 1 with a progression like other attack bonuses
Permanently burn Int or Per to bounce back from an otherwise incapacitating or potentially fatal wound and heal 1 die...I call this one "blocking with the head"

Much like MDoA is shared by Warriors an Dwarves, this could be shared by Barbarians and Half-orcs, but each class could have a different menu of rageburn options. I see the will save and additional action die being Barbarian, and the crit range and blocking with the head as Half-orc. There are a lot of possibilities, it builds on the game as written, and it lends both classes a core mechanic that is unique to them.
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Re: Alternate Barbarian

Post by maxinstuff »

Firstly - I am actually not a fan of Barbarian as a class. It seems to make more sense for me as an occupation in the context of DCC RPG.

With that said - here is how I would do it as a class, with the goal of providing interesting choices without being overpowered:

Barabarian
HD = 1d12 per CL
Lucky weapon (as per warrior)
Mighty deeds of arms (as per warrior, including deed die progression table)
Expanded critical threat (as per warrior)
Quick to fight (Add deed die to initiative instead of CL)
Hindered by armour (Armour check penalties apply to all combat actions, including initiative)
All I need is my butt-flap (Add the last deed die result to your AC, this is per combat round, up till your next turn, so if you are hit in the first round before acting nothing is added. The add is determined freshly each time you act in combat.)
Two handed advantage (+1 to AC when using a two handed weapon, a d16 is still used for initiative, and deed die is still added instead of CL)
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