Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

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Duchess512
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Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by Duchess512 »

My DM disagrees with me and I cant figure out why. Please read below and please let me know if I've misunderstood or got something wrong, thanks!

My Logic:
1. Range: The only downsides I can see is that it can only be cast through touch and b/c its 1 round to cast, you cant use movement so you have to be within 5ft of the target. The size increase at 20+ can be a hinderance in an enclosed space but presumably the caster would understand where/when to use it.
2. Duration: It last for 1 turn/CL, so even at lvl 1, as long as its successful, it lasts for a minimum of 60 rounds ( 1 rd is 10 seconds, 1 turn is 10 minutes), so it essentially gives the target Enlarge for entire length of combat.
3. Effect: Bestows melee classes with increased chance to hit, increased damage if it does hit, and increased AC. Anything higher than a 19 also gives target temporary hitpoints
4. Repeat Offender: Unlike other spells or spell effect, casting this does not cancel out the previous spell's effects, so it can be cast on any and all melee classes as long as they know to stand within 5ft of the caster.
5. Utility: Enlarge is also not a channeled spell or a concentration spell so it leaves the caster free to cast anything they want after successfully buffing their party.

There are more powerful spells, of course, but this is a spell that can radically transform 1 or more of your party and then leave the wizard free to use any other spell they have. Wizard/Elf + Enlarge + other spells is INSTANTLY more powerful and more useful than any Wizard/Elf without Enlarge + other spells.

Example: At a 20-23 spell effect, which is not difficult to achieve with a Wizard/Elf of higher levels (like, minimum 3 or 4), they can buff a dwarf with +4 to attack, damage, and AC and bestowing 10 temp HP, all of which last the entire combat. That dwarf can then go tear apart enemies using his own actions, independent of the wizard while the wizard can then buff another melee classed OR move on to their more powerful spells they might have in their book.

Please friends, why am I wrong?
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by Raven_Crowking »

Duchess512 wrote:4. Repeat Offender: Unlike other spells or spell effect, casting this does not cancel out the previous spell's effects, so it can be cast on any and all melee classes as long as they know to stand within 5ft of the caster.
But multiple castings do not stack on the same character/object.

Also, if you roll a "1", you might have just buffed your opponents.

Finally, it should be noted that you get what you roll; overdo it and you might kill your fighter by forcing he into a far smaller space than she can fit in.

Magic in DCC is powerful, but it is also a trap. Rely on it too much, and it will eventually burn you.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by GnomeBoy »

Nothing in the game is overpowered. Some things are insanely unpredictable and will absolutely change the very nature of what's happening for the party.

Also. dice will run hot and then run cold. Have fun with the Enlarge, because that TPK could be right around the corner...

But what level are you playing at? Are you worried about results that are unlikely to happen unless some severe spellburn were also happening, which is it's own limiting factor?
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by Ravenheart87 »

Nothing is overpowered in DCC RPG, but everything is badass. Every class has some really cool stuff to play with, while also being fragile. The warrior's Mighty Deeds of Arms, the thief's luck burning, the clerics ridiculous healing ability, the wizard's spells all can have over the top results even at low levels.
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by Ironmanowar »

Do what I do, the spell works as written, however, the AC bonus is an AC penalty, due to the creature being a much larger target. Just Like D&D 3.5 has the size adjustments for size.
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by BanjoJohn »

Well, you still have to cast the spell successfully, in my experience, most of the time people fail to cast the spell and lose it for the rest of the day the first time they cast the spell for the day.
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by clairelenore »

our party has a wizard and an elf who both got enlarge in their starting spells, plus a halfling with a really good luck stat. the wizard's physical stats are kinda sucky, but the elf's are pretty decent. so if we can hold off on too much spellburn and luck burn until we're pretty sure we're at the boss, he's toast if the room is big enough. we once had a warrior at the max result and three other guys at triple height at the same time, no lie!

but if this sounds like i'm agreeing about the op (pun intended!), i'm not, because that wizard also rolled "at great cost" for two of her other starting spells and even with a swell intelligence she only had enlarge, mending, and ekim's mask that she could cast without killing somebody. so she basically had one shot at doing anything awesome in a given scenario. with her bad agility she couldn't even hang back and use missile weapons to contribute to combat. on top of that, one of our party members insists on saying "just don't roll a 1!" anytime a 1 will screw us all. i dunno about in your games, but in ours, "just don't roll a 1" is like a real-world curse spell that works at least half the time.

dcc is a nutso game plain and simple, and if you pull off a boss kill with your plus-sized party, it just gives you a good story to tell and knocks off a couple of experience points you would've gotten since easy encounters get you less xp than hard ones.

:)
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by BernieTheFlumph »

When I ran Sailors on the Starless Sea, our wizard spell-burned 20 points and cast Enlarge on our dwarf. They were able to defeat the Chaos Leviathan this way.

I say it's just powerful enough! :D


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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by nudnic »

I’ve been running the same DCC campaign for a year straight and while I love spirit of the rules and a lot of the innovation I have to agree with the original post. The rules lack balance and a few things like enlarge really throw things out of whack.

At 3rd and 4th level. It’s not uncommon for the wizards in the party to enlarge one, two, or even three others to the point where they are +6 to everything 20 extra hit points. The effect this has on play is to make combat dull, one sided, and focused on one one or two characters sidelining the others. Not to mention the effect lasts long enough where in many situations it can be argued to last through one encounter into the next.

I like the suggestion of making the AC bonus a penalty. While a good suggestion it isn’t the rule for the spell in the book and running the game by GM fiat can’t be a solution to every problem.

The idea of let the dice fall where they may “don’t roll a 1” doesn’t seem to be a balancing factor. We’ve been playing for a year and corruption and adverse spell effects haven’t been an issue. It’s questionable to say that killing a party member by accidentally making them too big would be fun in anything other than a one off.

Enlarge is so combat effective it becomes the go to spell in every combat which is making the game dull. You can’t blame players for using the tools the rules gave them. You can’t blame them for crying foul for taking something away that the rules clearly say they get.
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by Jim Skach »

nudnic wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:11 pm I’ve been running the same DCC campaign for a year straight and while I love spirit of the rules and a lot of the innovation I have to agree with the original post. The rules lack balance and a few things like enlarge really throw things out of whack.

At 3rd and 4th level. It’s not uncommon for the wizards in the party to enlarge one, two, or even three others to the point where they are +6 to everything 20 extra hit points. The effect this has on play is to make combat dull, one sided, and focused on one one or two characters sidelining the others. Not to mention the effect lasts long enough where in many situations it can be argued to last through one encounter into the next.

I like the suggestion of making the AC bonus a penalty. While a good suggestion it isn’t the rule for the spell in the book and running the game by GM fiat can’t be a solution to every problem.

The idea of let the dice fall where they may “don’t roll a 1” doesn’t seem to be a balancing factor. We’ve been playing for a year and corruption and adverse spell effects haven’t been an issue. It’s questionable to say that killing a party member by accidentally making them too big would be fun in anything other than a one off.

Enlarge is so combat effective it becomes the go to spell in every combat which is making the game dull. You can’t blame players for using the tools the rules gave them. You can’t blame them for crying foul for taking something away that the rules clearly say they get.
It appears that the stats you provide are for the result of 24-27, correct? So, at 4th level, and an Int of 16, the wizard has to roll an 18 minimum to achieve this level of success. So a 15% chance of this kind of success versus a 25% chance of failure and loss as well as a 5% chance of something really bad happening.

But leaving the statistical analysis aside, the part that is interesting to me is the sense that there is an attempt here to...what, get them to change the spell in the book?

Don't take anything away from the players. If this is how they win every combat, legends will grow. Sooner or later a short wizard with a Napoleon complex is going to come gunning for them to learn/steal that spell knowledge....with a whole lot of ogres and giants as bodyguards, of course.

IMHO, the trick is to look at a much broader set of tools - natural, in game reasons - that bring consequences which result in players thinking twice about using repetitive approaches.
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by thogard »

Every die has a 1 on it.

Don't want them using Enlarge all the time? There are lots of places getting big would be a bad idea: rope bridge, narrow ledge on a cliff face, airship, treehouse, regular house, rookery, canoe ... not to mention the low ceilings and narrow passages they might find on a dungeon. Are all your encounters in open fields or giant caverns?
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by nudnic »

Jim Skach wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:26 am
nudnic wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:11 pm I’ve been running the same DCC campaign for a year straight and while I love spirit of the rules and a lot of the innovation I have to agree with the original post. The rules lack balance and a few things like enlarge really throw things out of whack.

At 3rd and 4th level. It’s not uncommon for the wizards in the party to enlarge one, two, or even three others to the point where they are +6 to everything 20 extra hit points. The effect this has on play is to make combat dull, one sided, and focused on one one or two characters sidelining the others. Not to mention the effect lasts long enough where in many situations it can be argued to last through one encounter into the next.

I like the suggestion of making the AC bonus a penalty. While a good suggestion it isn’t the rule for the spell in the book and running the game by GM fiat can’t be a solution to every problem.

The idea of let the dice fall where they may “don’t roll a 1” doesn’t seem to be a balancing factor. We’ve been playing for a year and corruption and adverse spell effects haven’t been an issue. It’s questionable to say that killing a party member by accidentally making them too big would be fun in anything other than a one off.

Enlarge is so combat effective it becomes the go to spell in every combat which is making the game dull. You can’t blame players for using the tools the rules gave them. You can’t blame them for crying foul for taking something away that the rules clearly say they get.
It appears that the stats you provide are for the result of 24-27, correct? So, at 4th level, and an Int of 16, the wizard has to roll an 18 minimum to achieve this level of success. So a 15% chance of this kind of success versus a 25% chance of failure and loss as well as a 5% chance of something really bad happening.

But leaving the statistical analysis aside, the part that is interesting to me is the sense that there is an attempt here to...what, get them to change the spell in the book?

Don't take anything away from the players. If this is how they win every combat, legends will grow. Sooner or later a short wizard with a Napoleon complex is going to come gunning for them to learn/steal that spell knowledge....with a whole lot of ogres and giants as bodyguards, of course.

IMHO, the trick is to look at a much broader set of tools - natural, in game reasons - that bring consequences which result in players thinking twice about using repetitive approaches.
Not sure about the odds and numbers I’m just relating the experience. I think one of the wizards has a mercurial magic that grants +4 on their next roll along with other bonuses.

A lot of the solutions sound very much DM abs the players. “if the players are getting away with this... then throw ... at them” which is a different game and maybe doesn’t work well with prewritten adventures.

You can’t fault players when they use what the rules give them and it takes some out of game conversation to take things away or change the rules. People tend to not be happy when you change the rules on the fly.

Underneath it all the Wizard and warrior are more powerful classes than the others. So these characters tend to hog game play in combat.
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by GnomeBoy »

How much stick are they getting?

That is, are you playing up when things go badly? Are you making Spellburn really cost what it should? As a con rep, I've heard a lot of stories about Wizard's running amok, but when we drill in, about half of those complaints are that they are just re-setting Spellburnt abilities between adventures... "several days pass, so you're all healed up".

If that or anything like it is happening, be sure that the stick is not being neglected for the carrot.

Misunderstanding how Disapproval works is another common issue that makes Clerics "too powerful"...
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by GnomeBoy »

Another thought is, it's the player's job to entertain themselves, too.

If their choices are boring to themselves, they need to explore other choices.

Another option would be to run published adventures that are a level or two higher than the party. The vicissitudes of DCC are such that "super-groups" can come into existence. Paying more attention to the party's punching power and less to the level numbers on the module covers and the character sheets may help synch things up.
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Re: Enlarge is OP, tell me why not!!!

Post by BanjoJohn »

Again, I don't see a problem with this. Besides, cleric's using bless chain buffs with some other spells are more OP than a wizard with enlarge.
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