Swapping Spells on New Level

[Shemesh]

Howdy all,

My group and I have been playing since DCC launched and we rotate Judges. I play a mage, about to hit level 5 and was wondering what you all thought about being able to "forget" known spells and pick new ones on leveling up assuming I have the spell (as a scroll or in my spellbook ) ?

We're on the fence about it and wanted get your take on it.

Cheers!
Shem

[Skars]

So access to new spells just wasn't good enough?

[Shemesh]

Well, you see, for example I have the spell Find Familiar (improved version), and I've done it. Great. Now that spell is useless and just eating up a spot that I could use to learn something way more useful that I have in my spellbook. However, the rules aren't clear as to whether or not I can remove that spell and learn a new one.

Personally (obviously) I see no reason why I couldn't but we wanted to get more feedback from the community first.

[GnomeBoy]

So your Wizard only wants just the one Familiar?

I'd say it depends a lot on style of play and what else you have in your repertoire...

Over the course of their career in a campaign, Find Familiar is just one spell (that potentially gives you another spell anyway, built in). No big whoop, "giving up" that one slot. I can imagine worse...

But if you play just occasionally, episodically, and don't advance very fast, it could sucketh the more.

My honest opinion is that Find Familiar should've been some kind of 'extra' ability of the Wizard, conditioned on some other factor (finding a scroll, etc.) and not have been a spell, per se.

But as it is, it is a spell with (relatively) permanent benefits to the Wizard -- that's possibly worth the spell slot, and justifies you being down a spell.

[Shemesh]

So I take it you mean that you do not support this idea of being able to "forget" a spell and learn a new one in its place?

(As for more than 1 familiar, as a Judge, I'd rule against it, plus I can always buy another scroll of that spell if needed).

[Skars]

Actually, I think your wizard's "quest" for additional power is great. I don't think it requires a ruling, the game rules are fine as is and you should "Quest for it". The best option IMO for replacing a spell by questing for it would be Patron Bond.

[GnomeBoy]

So I take it you mean that you do not support this idea of being able to "forget" a spell and learn a new one in its place?

The ethos of the game is a certain amount of randomosity. Some have suggested being able to swap out from the first suite of spells after the set is rolled, just to keep the character "playable" or fun or whatever.

Find Familiar gives you abilities, in the form of a creature that is bonded to you. You cast it once*, and you've got those powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men under your belt. Maybe you find those powers dull. Somebody else could have Mending, and be sad about it. Yet another person could have both of those spells and be happy about it.

* And as far as only having one familiar -- I don't see that it says you're limited to one. That is traditional, but does that mean we have to? Even if you were to hold it to one at a time, if it dies, you connect with another.

As a blind guess, it sounds like you just aren't thrilled with familiars. But it wouldn't be the first time that someone got a spell they were less than thrilled with.

I'm open to the idea that a suite of spells could make a Wizard no fun to play, especially if advancement was slow, and so some jiggering could be done. But if I had a player with Magic Missile and Spider Climb and Ekim's Mask and Force Manipulation and Find Familiar, I'd feel a lot less inclined to make adjustments for the fact that they were unhappy with Find Familiar... y'know what I mean?

[Shemesh]

@Skars Ah, interesting take on needing it to be a mission.

@Gnomeboy, I think you misunderstand me I love Fulbert my demonic guardian python! He's amazing and I cherish him greatly. My point was that after casting Find Familiar, the spell will not be used unless I need to find Another familiar (in which case I'd be able to purchase a scroll and cast it from there). I'm also thinking longer term. I mean the game caps us at a certain level (at least the core rulebook does) and it doesn't seem like there's a built-in way to customize the mage once he has his spells. So being able to rearrange the spells we already know would be one way to do that. It shouldn't be trivial, and should require some milestone event (like leveling up). Maybe require a spellburn of x2 the points per spell level and have of those points are not regained or something so you loose 1 point permanently for swapping out a level 1 spell, 2 for 2 etc. meh just a thought. I do like the quest for it idea though!

So, my spellbook is pretty hefty at this point and I have a ton of level 1 scrolls. Some of which would be very useful to know "permanently" that's all

[GnomeBoy]

What you're saying is all fine, if that's the style of your game.

I'm not sure where the scrolls are coming from, but I'd suggest that the 'default' style of the game is that having a bunch of scrolls would be fairly rare. Certainly buying them is not part of the tone of the game -- magic is supposed to be rare and scary, not a commodity you can pop down to the marketplace and purchase.

But again, if that's the style of your game, there's nothing wrong with that.

Personally, if I had a 'dead' spell on my spell list, I'd be trying to figure out how to 'bend' it in interesting ways... Can I summon a familiar for anyone else in the party with some special extra step that needs to be taken to do that? Can I summon a familiar for a place, like my keep, so when I'm away, there is a special guardian that it has with which I have a special link? I'd be looking for creative uses of the basic thing, before I thought to toss it. That may just be me, though.

All of this is my take. It's food for thought. It's nutritional value has not been determined.

[Shemesh]

Thank you for your point of view

[Monster]

There are many 1 shot spells. My only second level spell at 4th level is wizard staff.
The rest are first level spells. I believe you should be able to "Know" any spells from your books at the begining of each level. Having a cat or a staff in no way makes up for the lack of viable spells for the duration of a wizards lifetime.

If you can only know 6 spells and 3 of them are like this, you end up feeling pretty weak.
Compared to the other wizards and elves, it seems a bit harsh for random spells to do that.

[Rostranor]

I allow my players to learn spells. However they are only able to "know" ie cast the amount of spells they are allowed by level. With down time and the expense of gold and off scene rituals I allow them to switch out spells.

[ragboy]

I take the Dying Earth approach...sorta.

Wizard has a book of spells -- he or she can memorize whatever spells they wish before an adventure. If we're running "tight time," meaning that even off-adventure time is accounted for, it takes a week per spell level to memorize a spell and they must make a Spell Check with the minimum success result. This, naturally, removes a spell from your "memory." I'm a kind DM and allow the wizard to pick the spell to replace, however, if they roll a 1 on that Spell Check, I get to pick what spell is removed and the new one is not learned... and other fun stuff might happen.

[Skyscraper]

I have told my wizard player that if he finds new spells, he can choose to learn those instead of some that he has (assuming he manages to learn it of course). To learn a new spell, he sacrifices one that he knows, and then takes some time to try to learn the new one. I figure something like one week for a level 1 spell, and more for spells beyond level 1. I have no mathematic formula, I'll go with the flow here, the idea is that in my games stuff usually happens on a daily basis during an adventure, essentially precluding changing a spell during an adventure. However, between adventures there may be downtime, during which spell change is possible.

Also, finding a spell in my game is rare and a fantastic treasure for the wizard. So the wizard having a stash of spell candidates to replace his current known spells is not within my game's current style. Buying a spell scroll from a store simply does not exist - at least, PCs have never seen or heard of a "magic store". Magic is at best frowned upon, at worst reacted against.

Consequently, it is unlikely that the wizard will change spells often. But if he manages to find some spells to increase his roster, and has time to learn a new spell, it is allowable.

If in your game spell scrolls can be bought at a store, I assume that new spells are frequent. I can understand the judge's concern with allowing spells to be changed by the wizard like in most D&D editions, e.g. daily. In DCC, you can cast any spell a number of times, until your spell slots are used up. Adding full spell selection flexibility (e.g. daily changes) to that would further increase the wizard's already powerful arsenal, IMO. If I were your judge, I would certainly think about it it before allowing it considering this apparent ease to obtain new spells.

[Shemesh]

Indeed. No one is suggesting daily swaps. There should be a time and wealth cost to this. We decided to play a more high fantasy setting in ours, so magic is more common. That's just more fun for us.

Seems the consensus here is that If you find a spell, and you have significant downtime (judge's discretion) and the means, swapping spells under certain conditions is agreeable.

Cool.

[Skars]

Just send them to the Black Goat for the last bit of information they need to learn that new spell.

[GnomeBoy]

Just send them to the Black Goat for the last bit of information they need to learn that new spell.

You're saying it's thousand young won't do...?