Goodman Games

If a PC is walking down a dungeon hallway, I'm going to assume they're looking around unless they give me reason to believe they're not: PCs are walking and having a conversation so they're not as attentive, for example.

A PC is walking down a hallway and there's a tripwire running perpendicular to the hall. The player doesn't say the PC is actively looking for traps. I'd ask for a Luck check. If the PC failed the Luck check they'd fail to notice the tripwire and set off the trap.

If the PC was looking for a trap in this part of the hallway I'd ask for 1d20 modified by Intelligence compared to the DC to find the trap. A 1 would trigger the trap. Below the DC the PC wouldn't find the trap and may still get a Luck check to notice the trap before triggering it.

How long does it take to earn a searching/spotting roll?

-Jeff

kleefaj wrote:How long does it take to earn a searching/spotting roll?

If I understand the question correctly...

Anyone has a chance to detect the trouble before it goes off. What that chance is depends on the nature of the trouble and the nature of the character's expertise. This is where Occupation comes in, and that whole d10 vs. d20 thang.

You could consider adding in the character's Level to the roll, if you want to say 'adventuring' is an Occupation of it's own, so to speak, and characters get better at it as they go along.

But I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "earning a searching/spotting roll"...

GnomeBoy wrote:

kleefaj wrote:How long does it take to earn a searching/spotting roll?

If I understand the question correctly...

Anyone has a chance to detect the trouble before it goes off. What that chance is depends on the nature of the trouble and the nature of the character's expertise. This is where Occupation comes in, and that whole d10 vs. d20 thang.

You could consider adding in the character's Level to the roll, if you want to say 'adventuring' is an Occupation of it's own, so to speak, and characters get better at it as they go along.

But I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "earning a searching/spotting roll"...

A player doesn't want to spend more than a minute searching. Is a minute enough time to "earn" a roll? I guess it depends on what they're searching for.

A player listens at a door. Do they hear anything if they listen for 10 seconds vs. five minutes.

If it takes 10 minutes to search for a secret door and they only search for five do they get a roll or a penalty to search?

Does that make sense?

kleefaj wrote:A player doesn't want to spend more than a minute searching. Is a minute enough time to "earn" a roll? I guess it depends on what they're searching for.

Yes. Why not?

But if the thing they are "rolling for" is a tiny coin, hidden in a secret compartment inside an old boot, which is behind a secret panel in the old ornate desk... well, maybe they have to specify they are taking lots of time or are specifically dismantling the desk, or whatever.

There really isn't a "search check," per se... if they are searching, they find stuff. If their description of the search is "I look around the room" that's pretty vague, and you might call for a Luck check or something. If they say "that desk is weird, I'm giving it a thorough once over" maybe you just tell them they find the panel — but if they just toss the boot, well, then they ain't finding that coin, are they?

It's about **HOW** they are searching, as much (or more) than it is about what they are searching for...

But if it's a trap, then that's when you might need a specialist, like the Thief (although if you have no one playing a Thief, you can allow regular searching to turn up traps, if you like).

kleefaj wrote:A player listens at a door. Do they hear anything if they listen for 10 seconds vs. five minutes.

What's making the noise? A freight train, you'd hear in the first half second, but a quiet, intermittent conversation? You might miss it entirely. The logic of the situation is what you go by... If there's something to hear, they hear it.

kleefaj wrote:If it takes 10 minutes to search for a secret door and they only search for five do they get a roll or a penalty to search?

What circumstances are driving the fact that it takes 10 minutes? Couldn't they just happen to start looking right where the door is...? Would that still take 10 minutes? What if they just happen to lean against the wall, and it triggers the door? — they weren't even looking for it, but they found it!


It sounds like you're coming at this from the angle of "If player does X, then they can invoke ability Y — but if they don't do X, there is no chance of using Y"... Whereas the game works well if you just follow ordinary possibility (or even extraordinary possibility). You might hear that thing on the other side of the door without making any special effort, maybe without even specifically "listening at the door", etc. We aren't stumbling through the world making perception checks to cross every street; you look, there are no cars or cyclists, you cross. There's "no car" to hear, because it's a hybrid, but if you look, you can see it, plainly. If you were going by hearing alone, that might need a check, because the things are so darn silent. But to see it? It's right there!

GnomeBoy wrote:It sounds like you're coming at this from the angle of "If player does X, then they can invoke ability Y — but if they don't do X, there is no chance of using Y"... Whereas the game works well if you just follow ordinary possibility (or even extraordinary possibility). You might hear that thing on the other side of the door without making any special effort, maybe without even specifically "listening at the door", etc. We aren't stumbling through the world making perception checks to cross every street; you look, there are no cars or cyclists, you cross. There's "no car" to hear, because it's a hybrid, but if you look, you can see it, plainly. If you were going by hearing alone, that might need a check, because the things are so darn silent. But to see it? It's right there!

I think I'm letting myself get tied up in dice rolling rather than asking the players to describe what they're doing and I make a judgment call. I'm trying to answer questions I have with "the right rules" and I guess the rule is "use your judgement."

Right.

If it's passive perception, then it just comes down to you saying "you notice this" or not saying that, whichever serves the moment at the table better.

GnomeBoy wrote:Right.

If it's passive perception, then it just comes down to you saying "you notice this" or not saying that, whichever serves the moment at the table better.

So, a 0-level gongfarmer is walking down a hallway. A tripwire runs perpendicular to the hall. The player doesn't specify the PC is searching the hallway. The gongfarmer simply notices it because it's there? Or he gets a d10 + Int because he's not a thief yet (unless I decide his background would let him notice, like he's a hunter, then he'd get a d20 + Int). Or I ask the player to make a Luck check to see if the PC sees it in time?

kleefaj wrote:So, a 0-level gongfarmer is walking down a hallway. A tripwire runs perpendicular to the hall. The player doesn't specify the PC is searching the hallway. The gongfarmer simply notices it because it's there? Or he gets a d10 + Int because he's not a thief yet (unless I decide his background would let him notice, like he's a hunter, then he'd get a d20 + Int). Or I ask the player to make a Luck check to see if the PC sees it in time?

Context-free, off the top of my head:

One Level-Zero dude might just be a victim. Funnels are meant to be brutal. And they are meant to introduce the game, too; if you think there could be danger, and you're not acting appropriately, you might suddenly get to be dead. If the trap has a save, that could be all that is needed to determine the outcome.

Now a crowd... well there's a chance that "a crowd" might see something. If a player has a group of zeroes going down a hallway I might ask for the player to make a Luck check. If the trap is set carefully and expertly, it might be the lowest Luck of the group is the basis for the check. But if it was a trap set hastily, while on the run, maybe the highest Luck in the group is used.

Or maybe the crowd just steps right in, and that lead gongfarmer trips the trap and off goes his head. The other three now have incentive to be more careful... And so, yeah, maybe the next trap you just tell them something is there -- they still have the challenge of getting past it alive.

I say "context-free" at the top there, because for example I don't know what the lighting conditions are... I don't know if you've ever been in an actual underground cavern with only a hand-held light, but there are tons of things you might not see or ever know where there. Plenty of opportunity to trip a tripwire unwittingly. I realize most games aren't run that way (it is a game, afterall), but the level of realism can certainly vary from game to game and I don't know what you're aiming for...

If the character is just loping along without any air of caution, zap 'em. But to be clear, they should have a chance to establish how they are making their way down the hallway. That should give you something to build on as to "is there a chance to see this or not?".

In general i don't roll dice unless i have to. If the pc is chit chatting away and walking down a hallway. Unless he stops and tells me i'm looking for traps and describes how. I don't give him a roll. He just sets off the trap. To be honest if he goes into detail about how he is looking and what he is doing and it makes sense that he would find the trap I just tell him he found it and don't make him roll either. What dice are for is those times when he is looking but can't take all day doing it. It's a dangerous rushed job so the dice need to come out.

Don't forget most Traps are MADE to be unseen! Good Trap makers go to great lengths to make sure they don't leave much in the way of clues that something is trapped.

Now there are times traps are more crude or rushed any in those cases a bonus or even warning might be in order.

"You see the trail before you is covered in debris as if someone racked the sides and pulled them into the middle of the trail for some reason."

"Some of the branches to these trees are in strange positions, as if something is holding them back."

It just all depends.

The one thing i wouldn't do is leave it all to a dive roll, get the player involved!

When my players are in a situation that can not be fairly described yet I feel they may have a reasonable chance of noticing something, I have them roll percentiles without telling them why. What they roll for depends on the situation. Generally, in a walking down the hallway setting I would have them roll intelligence x 2 + wisdom + level. If there is anything down the line of a lore or general cultural/historical situation then it would be wisdom x 2.
I like how the numbers can change as we play since all three variables can change. Also, this makes up for the basic shortcomings involved in describing a space - if I spend too much time and effort describing something the PCs know to pay attention to that item, which I find is tipping the hand.

Losloris

I'd say luck roll.

Anyway, oldschool-style, characters do not roll for traps unless they are thief. Instead, the search for traps (and deactivation!) is roleplayed. If they don't say "I check for anything weird in the hallway", they just trigger the trap. If they check, you can tell them there is a thin thread alongside the corridor a few inches from the floor. Maybe they just avoid it, maybe they try to cut it, and maybe this triggers the trap anyways.

Take most of perception issues like a graphic adventure, make them look for stuff interacting with their environment. The same applies for searching tasks: A plain roll is boring. "I check under the carpet" and "Is there anything inside those jars?" is far more interesting.

My players are very paranoid at this point, checking everywhere. And I like this.