multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

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marshal kt

multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by marshal kt » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:34 pm

In a couple of the published adventures, there are a couple spots, mostly for opening barred or stuck doors, with a DC of 30.
1 character can't roll that high on his own, at 0 or 1st level, which are the levels these adventures.
1 of them specificly says that no more than 2 characters can attempt this at a time.

The little over 1 page of text on skills doesn't say anything about how to combine rolls or modify 1 roll.

Does each character roll, if so, vs what DC?
Or do they just roll ad add the results and bonuses?

Does only 1 roll and the other/rest just add their modifier? [which is still impossible, for 0 or 1st level characters to achieve DC30. d20 roll of 20, +3 and +3 for two characters with 18 strength, will yield a result of 26.]

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by Ravenheart87 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:58 pm

There are things that are nigh impossible with raw rolls. These are the times when creative ideas and clever use of magic, items and other resources can help a lot. Or they can burn Luck.
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marshal kt

Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by marshal kt » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:07 pm

But, how/what do 2 characters roll?
If 1 rolls a d20, does the other?
If so, what is his DC?
Does he just add his bonus and not roll?

Also, 0 levels don't have magic.

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by Ravenheart87 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:48 pm

marshal kt wrote:But, how/what do 2 characters roll?
If 1 rolls a d20, does the other?
If so, what is his DC?
Does he just add his bonus and not roll?
It's up to the Referee. I would let them roll a single d20 and adding both of their bonuses to it. Another idea that comes to my mind is halving the DC and if both of them succeeds on a check against it, they win (eg. to beat DC 30 both of them makes a DC 15 check).
marshal kt wrote:Also, 0 levels don't have magic.
Adventure places usually don't disappear once the characters finish a quest. Such things may make it sure that the players will return. Also, while they don't have magic, the other options (luck or being creative with items and your environment) still apply. ;)
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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by marshal kt » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:08 pm

Ravenheart87 wrote:
marshal kt wrote:But, how/what do 2 characters roll?
If 1 rolls a d20, does the other?
If so, what is his DC?
Does he just add his bonus and not roll?
It's up to the Referee. I would let them roll a single d20 and adding both of their bonuses to it. Another idea that comes to my mind is halving the DC and if both of them succeeds on a check against it, they win (eg. to beat DC 30 both of them makes a DC 15 check).
marshal kt wrote:Also, 0 levels don't have magic.
Adventure places usually don't disappear once the characters finish a quest. Such things may make it sure that the players will return. Also, while they don't have magic, the other options (luck or being creative with items and your environment) still apply. ;)
While they might 'still apply' in this adventure, the option to return isn't possible.

Also re-reading through the adventure, the 'nomal human acolytes' open and close these same doors daily, yet none have "(luck or being creative with items and your environment)" needed to open the doors.

I bought the game, since I have players who only like/play d20 systems. I thought it was a fast and simple system to play/run.
The more I read, and reread, the less so it seems. With missing or incomplete rules & explanations being the norm.
If this was a beta game, or someone's first attempt at making a ruleset, I'd understand and expect it.
This is the 2nd printing of rules that have been 'in the works' since D&D 3.0?

Am I expecting too much to have the rules fully explained? Like I've posted in other questions, this isn't my 1st game system. I've been playing and running since 1980. But I've never had a system go into such great detail over 1 subject [spells & spell effect, fumbles, crits & corruption] and then completely ignore another one, that is integral to the game. [how clerics get/choose/are given their spells, how to have co-operative dice rolling/skill checks.]

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by IronWolf » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:07 am

marshal kt wrote: I bought the game, since I have players who only like/play d20 systems. I thought it was a fast and simple system to play/run.
The more I read, and reread, the less so it seems. With missing or incomplete rules & explanations being the norm.
In my experience the systems with rules for every single thing a character can do generally are no simple and become quite complex. The complexity slows things down. I am not sure fast and simple can be paired with a system where everything is codified.
marshal kt wrote: Am I expecting too much to have the rules fully explained? Like I've posted in other questions, this isn't my 1st game system. I've been playing and running since 1980. But I've never had a system go into such great detail over 1 subject [spells & spell effect, fumbles, crits & corruption] and then completely ignore another one, that is integral to the game. [how clerics get/choose/are given their spells, how to have co-operative dice rolling/skill checks.]
DCC takes the approach of rules as a guideline. If you are expecting to have every situation the characters can run into then you are likely to be frustrated with the system. DCC is very empowering to the judge running the game and leans heavily on the judge making at the table decisions.

This makes for fast play and in addition to empowering the judge it also empowers the players. The players' creativity isn't stifled by rules that strictly say what they can and can't do. Rather they can get creative and come up with solutions themselves that the judge can rule on success or failure on. Well thought out ideas tend to work and hasty 'I want to make a strength check' might not be. The system rewards the creative player.

As for your DC30 door question. It really depends on the situation as to how I would rule it. Frankly, if they say they just want to make strength checks I am apt to have one person declared the primary roller and then up to two others roll against a lower DC (maybe a 10) to see if they can add an additional +2 to the primary roll. Against a DC 30, this very well might mean the door might not be open after the check. I am fine with that.

Now if those same players come up with innovative ideas on how to break the door down, remove its hinges, pry the door open, pull the door down, or any other number of ideas they might come up with - they might figure out how to open the door without me even calling for a roll.

And this is what makes DCC great. I, as the judge, have lots of room to work with and the players don't have pages and pages of rules restricting what they can and can't do. It is just us sitting at a table having fun!

So the question is - what do you think they should roll for a DC30 check? What seems fair for their specific situation? Use that and run with it.

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by Raven_Crowking » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:04 am

marshal kt wrote:While they might 'still apply' in this adventure, the option to return isn't possible.

Also re-reading through the adventure, the 'nomal human acolytes' open and close these same doors daily, yet none have "(luck or being creative with items and your environment)" needed to open the doors.
Can you be more specific? In some cases, I think, the doors might yield easier to the normal acolytes because of the influence of supernatural forces, esp. if this is The People of the Pit we are discussing.

In any event, when running a module, I tend to add all bonuses, +1 per extra character (so that even a +0 Strength helps) and use a single roll. Three strikes, then you're out. Thieves and halflings may burn Luck to good effect, of course, others as normal.

In running DCC Barrowmaze, there is a portcullis that is described (in Labyrinth Lord) as taking 5 characters to lift and hold. When I ran it, I used a DC 30 check or 5 characters automatically succeed. The PCs used a Strength spell and Rope Trick to hold the portcullis up with a single character. And that's not only completely okay; that's great.
Am I expecting too much to have the rules fully explained?
Sort of.

There are a lot of versions of "how to do X" on the market. If you came from 3.x, you have one way. If you came from AD&D, you have another. DCC doesn't want you to have to rewrite everything you are doing. If you prefer to do it one way, go for it. If you prefer to do it another, then that is okay too. Having neither a "right" or a "wrong" way means that you don't have to change, and no one else can tell you that you are doing it wrong.

The critical hit/fumble system DCC uses is new. It needs to be explained. You can use any system you want to open doors. Roll 1d6 and get equal to your Strength modifier or less is as fair as rolling a check against a DC. It is even fair to use different systems in different adventures/encounters.

The beauty of a simple system is that it doesn't tell you how you have to do things. I roll initiative each round, because I like it that way. I am considering going back to d10 initiative so that bonuses matter more. Even things that are explicit in the book need not be followed.

It may take a while to embrace the idea that your idea of how it should work is as good as a professional game designer's idea, but it really is. To paraphrase Gary Gygax, this work is not written from "on high" with rules that must be followed, but is rather written from one judge to another.
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marshal kt

Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by marshal kt » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:13 am

I'm not looking for a system with every rule explained, a la` Munchikin & even Pathfinder, but the core basic rules; how clerics get their spells and how combined skill checks work; for 2 quick examples, but the core, every adventure rules explained.

We flipped through the book last nite. he blank space theat could've ben filed with rules, not counting the excessive amount of art, alot of it poorly draw, had more than enough places to put the missing rules.

If you want to read a rule system, thathas everything explained, without goint into minutia, check out Savage Worlds. I't less than a third the size, has full color art and is $10.

Hell, they even have an official person online to explain any rule questions.

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by NJPDX » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:25 pm

This is not meant to sound snarky in the slightest, but perhaps DCC isn't the right game for you? There's nothing wrong with that, because I think it's a somewhat poor choice of game for people who need a lot of explicit rules - especially when it's somewhat implicit that this game is geared towards people who prefer making rulings and use the "rules-as-written" mostly as a framework for their creativity. Off-hand I'm not sure what I would suggest in its place, but there is no shortage of choice in the RPG market these days.

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by marshal kt » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:01 pm

NJPDX wrote:This is not meant to sound snarky in the slightest, but perhaps DCC isn't the right game for you? There's nothing wrong with that, because I think it's a somewhat poor choice of game for people who need a lot of explicit rules - especially when it's somewhat implicit that this game is geared towards people who prefer making rulings and use the "rules-as-written" mostly as a framework for their creativity. Off-hand I'm not sure what I would suggest in its place, but there is no shortage of choice in the RPG market these days.
Not to sound snarky either, but I've run games from kickstarters, betas and pre-released that were more complete than DCC. I don't need or want a rules explicit system. I do want a complete system that has rules for things that happen in it's provided adventure. I wasn't expecting a rules heavy game like Munchkin or even Exaulted; which had a 3 page example of using social skills, like going out on a date. I was expecting a complete system with rules covering common usage situations that occur in every game; especially when 2 of them can occur every game and are in the included adventures. [DC 30 strength check.] I didn't expect to have a list of every possible situational modifier for combat.

Every version of AD&D and D&D I've run or played since 1980 had all of these rules explained, without going into minutia of any.
DCC has over 480 pages, including full page ads and art. 176 pages of spells and their descriptions. 1 1/4th pages of how skills work, but not even a line on how to make combined skill checks. 38 pages about patrons, and how they 'work'; but zero pages on how clerics get spells. [Players or GM's choice?] 49 pages of full page art; including black & white versions of the front & back covers; and at least that much more if all art was combined into full pages. Almost that much of blank space; for a total for 150 pages of art or blank space. One-third of the book. Eleven pages of ads, including an ad for the book itself. Nine pages of all black between chapters. The space is there for these simple rule explanations. Actually, since the rules aren't even in the book to be explained, I should say space for these rules.

I also was expecting an official rules section on the forum; not a bunch of players & GM's making their 'best guess' on how to run a game. If I did, I'd play anything from Games Workshop, Black Library or any of their other subsidiaries.

Yes, DCC should have a disclaimer:
Warning this is an incomplete system. It's intended for players & GM's fluent in d20 systems and want a new set of spells, with backfires, failures and criticals. With some intersting patrons to provide some spells. Some new and interesting and comprehensive fumbles and critical charts, by race and class. Who want to play zero level characters and to have fun dieing alot. This game doesn't support feats, prestige classes or any of the over-powered frills of D&D since 3.0. It isn't over-powered with magic items, but gives some innovative rules on how to create unique ones.

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by IronWolf » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:53 pm

marshal kt wrote:especially when 2 of them can occur every game and are in the included adventures. [DC 30 strength check.]
Okay - I've tried looking through some of the low-level adventures and can't find this DC 30 check. I must have skimmed over it or not looked in the right adventure. Which adventure are we talking about here?

marshal kt

Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by marshal kt » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:50 pm

IronWolf wrote:
marshal kt wrote:especially when 2 of them can occur every game and are in the included adventures. [DC 30 strength check.]
Okay - I've tried looking through some of the low-level adventures and can't find this DC 30 check. I must have skimmed over it or not looked in the right adventure. Which adventure are we talking about here?
You're right, I'm wrong about the location and the level of the check.
But both of the below are written by the rules author, who should have explained them either in the main rules or the modules.

Adventure #67, the 1st one for DCC has STR DC 20 on location H or an alternate method taking 5 minutes.
Also in area B1 DC 20 to free the axe and to open the portal. So only a roll of 20, or a very strong character, which is unusual for zero levels, to get 17, 18,19. Two DC 23 checks are needed in area B1 to recover the armor. Area C has the portcullis with a DC23 check but at least gives an alternate method for 4 characters to perform. D-1 has the DC 30 check. No alternate methods.


Adventure #68, the 2nd one for DCC has STR DC 14 but says only 2 characters can participate in shoving it open. It is an official adventure, by the author of the rules, with no explanation on how 2 characters can work together.
Area 1-18 has a DC 22 strength check.
Area 1-21 has a DC 24 Str check, but at least partially explains how 8 characters can work together. Area 1-22 same as 1-21.

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by Jim Skach » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:24 am

They do have really specific rules for some monsters...
TROLL
Troll: Init +6; Atk bite +10 melee (2d8+6) or claw +8 melee
(dmg 2d6); AC 19; HD 8d8+6; MV 40’; Act 3d20; SP stench,
regeneration, immune to critical hits, immune to mind-affecting
spells, vulnerable to fire; SV Fort +10, Ref +5, Will
+8 (see below); AL C.

Few living man have seen a troll, for to behold one is to die. The troll is a relentless pursuer, a calm hunter, a non-sentient beast that ravishes all it encounters. Like a mindless slime or an unthinking insect, it simply hunts, striving evermore to satiate an endless hunger, devouring man, metal, flesh, and vegetable—not to mention offal, tree trunks, and, on occasion, rocks and bones. Standing twice the height of a man with rangy limbs, it has a rubbery flesh, a long green nose, and no internal organs. Its beady black eyes stare from a winding cavernous lair whose stench wafts on the breeze for miles around.

When not encountered in its lair, a troll typically attacks from ambush. Each round it can bite then claw twice. A troll stinks so badly that men within 20’ must make a DC 12 Fort save each round or succumb to a fit of retching (-2 to all rolls while retching).

The troll is immune to mindaffecting spells, such as hypnosis or charm, due to its lack of sentience. It has no internal organs, brain, skeleton, or concentrations of nerves, and is thus immune to critical hits, as well as poison and disease. Finally, it heals at a prodigious rate, regenerating 1d8 points of damage at the end of each round, including the round it is killed. It can only be truly put down by taking its hit points negative such that its final regenerative burst does not raise its total above 0. A troll’s severed head or limbs will even crawl back and re-attach.

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by marshal kt » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:00 am

Jim Skach wrote:They do have really specific rules for some monsters...
TROLL
Troll: Init +6; Atk bite +10 melee (2d8+6) or claw +8 melee
(dmg 2d6); AC 19; HD 8d8+6; MV 40’; Act 3d20; SP stench,
regeneration, immune to critical hits, immune to mind-affecting
spells, vulnerable to fire; SV Fort +10, Ref +5, Will
+8 (see below); AL C.

Few living man have seen a troll, for to behold one is to die. The troll is a relentless pursuer, a calm hunter, a non-sentient beast that ravishes all it encounters. Like a mindless slime or an unthinking insect, it simply hunts, striving evermore to satiate an endless hunger, devouring man, metal, flesh, and vegetable—not to mention offal, tree trunks, and, on occasion, rocks and bones. Standing twice the height of a man with rangy limbs, it has a rubbery flesh, a long green nose, and no internal organs. Its beady black eyes stare from a winding cavernous lair whose stench wafts on the breeze for miles around.

When not encountered in its lair, a troll typically attacks from ambush. Each round it can bite then claw twice. A troll stinks so badly that men within 20’ must make a DC 12 Fort save each round or succumb to a fit of retching (-2 to all rolls while retching).

The troll is immune to mindaffecting spells, such as hypnosis or charm, due to its lack of sentience. It has no internal organs, brain, skeleton, or concentrations of nerves, and is thus immune to critical hits, as well as poison and disease. Finally, it heals at a prodigious rate, regenerating 1d8 points of damage at the end of each round, including the round it is killed. It can only be truly put down by taking its hit points negative such that its final regenerative burst does not raise its total above 0. A troll’s severed head or limbs will even crawl back and re-attach.

And that isn't my problem. Actually, for a one book system, DCC has good amont of monsters and adversaries.

My complaint stems from what it doesn't have; rules that goven the basics of the game. The two I've found off hand are: how do clerics get their spells and characters combining on skill checks. Two rules that should be in any game since they can, and probably will, occur every session. I've read several different responses from players and GM's, but no official ones. Why, because they're isn't one. That's my point. There are multiple places that the rules could have been added, without adding pages.

When I first asked the questions, I expected to be told "Page [x], left hand column, halfway down." I simply overlooked the answers.
I never expected to be attacked and called 'an inexperienced GM' because the rules aren't there and I have to house rule them. There's enough situations for that already, to have to do it for such basic rules, that are included in every game system I've read or played in 30 years. That's at least 100 systems.

Like I've said many times, I've played or run every version of D&D and AD&D since 1980. I haven't played but 1 game of 3.5 or 4.0. I've only read the Pathfinder rules. I've played 1 game of D20 Modern. I'm not a fluent in D20, but am by no means a novice.

Yes, if I want to continue to GM DCC, I have to do a lot or research or preperation for each adventure, to make up for the shortgomings. Yup, this is a throw back to 1980. At least the dungeons aren't 'hotels for monsters' with different monsters in each room side-by-side, just waiting for the door to open to die.

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:53 am

According to page 28, Clerics get their spells from their deity. So that comes down to how you want to do deities.

Some GMs might let the player pick, and then review the choices to make sure they fit with the god. Some might tell the player "here are your starting spells" and that's that. Many journeys are possible.

But I'm fairly sure that's not the answer you wanted.

Have you seen the first section of the Judge's Rules? The first and fourth points on page 314 are essentially the 'Rule Zero' for this game. The bottom line is that the 'official' way to do it is the way you want to do it.

Having multiple ways to do things, ain't a bad thing. Case in point: Most games would say "this is how you break down a door" and there'd be one method for that.

But consider this:

• One door might be placed along a nice flat stretch of flooring with good traction all around and that door be wide enough that several hands could aid in busting it open.

• Another door, might be at the top of a slight but steep rise, and the surface itself be crumbly like shale, and the access to the door is through a narrow alcove.

That first case might call for everybody involved making a Strength check and adding all the totals. If they together beat the DC, the door is broken open.

In the second case, maybe only one person could possibly assist (and even that might be questionable, in the circumstances). They make a DC 15 Strength check and if successful, add +2 to the main person's attempt (this being less of test of raw Strength, and more knowing how to apply that Strength in this case for maximum effectiveness). If the main attempter rolled a natural 20, and his Str bonus plus the extra +2 from the assistant were not enough to take the door down, well, then the party will have to get clever -- that cleverness may reduce the DC on the door, if it's the right sort of clever.

One flat rule makes all doors more or less equal. Being able to adapt and make rulings, makes doors as unique as I want them to be. And the approach doesn't just apply to doors...

That's something I like about DCC RPG. Could it have been sketched in better? Yes.
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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by smathis » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:23 am

Here's my rule of thumb. Have one PC designated as the primary. He rolls normally. All other PCs roll the same check. With a 1, they take a -2 off the primary's roll. With 2-5, they take -1. With 6-9, no effect. With 10-14, they add +1. With 15-19, +2. 20-24: +3. And so forth. A natural 20 adds a +5.

That's it. That's all. Been using it since 3e was new.

I don't know if DCC RPG has any codified rule for this. But there are a few skill checks where multiple PCs need to roll (collectively) over X DC.

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by Skyscraper » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:57 am

I agree that a rule for combining skill checks could have been considered. However, personally, I do not care for such. I'll ask players to roll their dice, if both get a high roll they succeed on a hard check.

Also, I guess if a DC 30 check is provided on a door to open it, it means to me:

- that no single PC can possibly manage to open it... Unless he burns luck and gets the best strength check he can get. In which case, isn't that cool?
- i'd question whether the door is meant to be opened. To me, any mundane door can be opened, given enough time and a few tools - and I include weapons such as axes and swords as tools. Of course, if you have hammers, a ram, or ways of making a ram... Well you'll eventually get through. However, if the door is the magical kind, maybe it's jut meant to resist. Maybe the author, instead of saying "this door cannot be opened" - which is pretty radical, instead said "this is DC 30" knowing full well that it probably won't be opened but, you never know what players will think about. Which is also pretty cool.

Also, I question whether all this line of questioning is really relevant in the end. If I look to any commercial adventure, I'll find loopholes, stuff I don't understand, etc... Most don't come up during the game. Of those that do, 95% can be decided on the fly within about 2 seconds. I can debate on the internet whether this or that rule should have existed, but if it isn't a problem for me in one of my games in actual, reall gameplay, I don't care. If I get a DC 30 door in a game I'm running, I'll handle this myself by deciding whether I want that door opened by the PCs, or not. DC 30 is an indication that it won't be opened, unless the players make a compelling case of opening the door. (I always think of rulesets as serving me, and not the other way around.)

What's more important to me is the entire story and feel of the adventure. Does the story make sense? Are the NPCs interesting? Is the setting fun and inspiring? Is the ambiance evocative? Are we avoiding the railroad that many commercial adventures have? That's what I'm looking for. The rest: I appreciate if it's well made, but I won't blink an eye at the lack of explanation on how to open a DC 30 door.

And since this thread is broadening to critiquing the entire DCC game, I'll mention that DCC is a very inspiring game in its ruleset and its flavor, it is very evocative. Thus, the game appeals to me. The rest is trivial and up to now, I've felt very comfortable with deciding stuff on the fly, avoiding the useless page flipping that comes with looking up rules.
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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by jozxyqk » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:59 am

Skyscraper wrote:I agree that a rule for combining skill checks could have been considered. However, personally, I do not care for such. I'll ask players to roll their dice, if both get a high roll they succeed on a hard check.
I guess I'm confused by this. Does this mean you just make a "gut" call about whether the numbers are high enough?

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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by Skyscraper » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:50 am

jozxyqk wrote:
Skyscraper wrote:I agree that a rule for combining skill checks could have been considered. However, personally, I do not care for such. I'll ask players to roll their dice, if both get a high roll they succeed on a hard check.
I guess I'm confused by this. Does this mean you just make a "gut" call about whether the numbers are high enough?
Yes. I very often do that for skill checks. Most skill checks I ask for are on-the-fly, for example one character wants to do something that seems tricky to me, I ask for a skill check, in which case I'll look at the die result and decide if it's a success without any reference to a target DC. The idea is, target DCs are very arbitrary anyway, I could easily argue that a DC 15 could have been DC 12 instead. So I have a general idea of a difficulty level, easy, medium, hard, and I wait to see the die result and decide accordingly.

Alternately, what I also do sometimes, is call out the DC before the player rolls the die. Then, we'll of course stick to the die result.

This is for a single PC action.

For a combined PC action, I'm more inclined to use the approximate gut call. The point being, any system I've ever seen for combining skill checks, are pretty sketchy anyway. The most concrete one was the "+2 per PC helping" from 4E (and 3E I think), where the helping PC needed to make a DC 10 check to help. That's kind of weak, in that the amount of help a helping PC can provide changes incredibly depending on the situation. One PC wants to lift a heavy log: two PCs would be much better than a simple +2 IMO. However, once PC wants to jump across a pit. There's only so much help the second PC can provide really.

So depending on what's being accomplished, I'll see how the die rolls pan out and make a call based on that.

All this assumes a skill check is required, because often times I'll simply allow an action to work without any skill check (e.g. moving the log is simply do-able if two PCs get together to do it).
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.

dm_roger
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Re: multiple characters combineing for a skill check?

Post by dm_roger » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:34 am

It's an old post.. .but thought I would add my 2 cents for the benefit of future readers...

Most rule systems don't fit. You MUST define what makes sense for the situation. The people that write those modules have NO IDEA on the players, characters or party composition when they write them.

Totally depending on the DC and the total number of people I think can logically help and limit those characters to 3 attempts each (3-strike rule)...

A player can request AID from another player(s). The player(s) may AID in one of two ways: give their bonus(minimum +1, if they are 0 or less) to the main player to use on their die roll
-OR- provide an additional die roll and use their own bonus, which effectively turns it into a group roll.

A group roll in a DCC funnel may be, each player picks their best character, each rolls with their bonus.
Either ANY successful roll succeeds... or simple majority succeeds (maybe with a small penalty)... or two-thirds (no penalty), etc. whatever you think.

Obviously, for a high DC, they will want to combine. I have logically determined how many may provide AID.

A 5' wide door, only two may force together.
A 10' wide door, 4 may force together.
What if they tie a rope around the handles on a door that opens toward them? 1 character per 5' of rope...
2 may use a portable battering ram, 4 may use a small battering ram, 6 for medium, 8 for large (they would have to make from cutting down a tree, lashing ropes, etc)
Tools: Using a crowbar doubles strength output (double strength bonus), block and tackle quadruples strength output(4x push/pull weight or 4x bonus)
What about 12 characters, using block and tackle, with 50' of rope on a DC30 door that opens toward them?
A door will have an AC and HP in case they want to just hack at it for a while... or try to set it on fire... d6 per 5'x5' section per hour....

A DC completely out of any roll they may be capable of producing.... level-0 funnel... with a DC30, magically barred and impervious to damage...
not sure why that door is in the game.. not like they will EVER come back to that door for any reason whatsoever...
What if that DC30 door also had a key laying on the door frame over the door, but it was stuck in the crack (ala Evil Dead) and instead took a Dex DC12 check to get it loose… 3 success before 3 fails or break the key… lol… it was right there…

And then there’s GM discretion… hokus pokus, abracalower… I just made the DC lower… just make it a DC25 or 20 (or whatever I need) and in the way I want to allow them to get through it (force, magic word, alignment, etc).
I think of it as whatever I want them to roll on the d20... whether a 18, 19 or 20... tough as nails... barely got it!

Then there is rolling a 20 on a d20.... is a 20 ALWAYS a success? and a 1 ALWAYS a fail? Does it apply to that door? Unless that door is magically sealed and requires a specific spell, key, item or scenario that the characters can acquire in that dungeon.... a nat 20 opens that puppy!... HELLZ YEAH!!!

High fives and cheers all around!!!

Alternately, I regularly set high DCs and allow my players to describe their actions in detail to lower it. So they can choose to just roll against the high DC, or they can talk it down either 5 or 10 points first. It gets them into the story-telling part of the game. They have even managed to describe it to the point of not having to roll at all! Awesome! (BTW, listening and watching a 90# teenage girl, who plays a 5' tall dwarf, describe how she's going to drag a 6'-7", 265# half-orc, barabarian out of a rat hole by his feet is pretty amusing..)

It is YOUR game... with YOUR friends... just be fair and live by the same rules you give them... everybody will be happy...

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