Peer Review: Encumbrance Rules for DCC

[Pesky]

Hi All,

I have been working with my group to come up with some Encumbrance rules that provide enough structure for the judge, while providing enough freedom for the player. I came upon this thread from Colin that was in a similar vein as to what I was trying to do:
http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 72&t=39684
I acknowledge that in that thread some folks find the encumbrance rules of Lamentations of the Flame Princess attractive. However, they don't quite work for me. Consequently I contacted Colin and we decided to jointly write an article for Crawl! Please give it a read (or even better, a play-test) and let me know what you think. Thanks!

Encumbrance House-Rules for DCC RPG

In this system, single large items or groups of smaller items are assigned an encumbrance value (EV). A PC is “Lightly Encumbered” if his carried EV is less than or equal to his “carrying capacity,” Base EV+ 2x Strength modifier; no movement or attack penalties are incurred (beyond worn armor penalties). The Base EV is 25 for Humans and Elves, 15 for Halflings (tiny folk), and 30 for Dwarves (broad-shouldered). If a PC carries weight greater than his carrying capacity but less than twice that amount, then base speed is halved (apply armor penalty to halved speed rather than full speed) and actions are -1d. PCs cannot carry more than twice their carrying capacity and still move. Actions are -3d if this much weight is borne.

The EV for a particular item is assigned using the following guidelines: 0 EV, worn/equipped armor, a few tiny items; 1 EV, Small items; 4 EV, moderate items; 8 EV, large items. The EV for extra carried armor is one-half the value of the related fumble die. EV values for standard DCC RPG equipment are listed below. Note that coins, arrows, bolts, and stones are 0 EV if the number of items is below a threshold. Here are a few examples of calculating EV for a PC:

Throg the fighter has a 14 strength (+1 modifier), so his carrying capacity is 25+2*1 = 27. He has a two-handed sword strapped to his back (8 EV), a long sword (4 EV), a shield (4 EV), and is wearing a suit of full plate (0 EV). In his backpack he has 4 days’ rations and one torch (4 EV = (4*1+4)*1/2). He also is carrying a quiver of 24 arrows for his buddy (4 EV = 24/3*1/2). This puts his total EV at 8+4+4+0+4+4=24, so he has 3 EV left that he can use to carry additional items before his movement is penalized.

Quip the Halfling has an 11 strength (no modifier), so his carrying capacity is 15. He is wearing leather armor (0 EV) has 2 short swords (8 EV = 2*4), a sling (1 EV), and a pouch with 9 stones (1 EV = 1*1/2) and a full waterskin (1 EV). In another pouch he has 100 coins (1 EV = 2*1/2), and in his backpack he has 5 days’ worth of rations (3 EV = 5*1*1/2). This puts his total EV at 0+8+1+1+1+1+3 = 15, thus he is at his carrying capacity. If he sees a shiny coin on the ground he may store it happily with no penalty (less than 50 coins is zero EV); if he sees 50 shiny coins, then he may want to leave some behind. If he takes all the coins, then his EV climbs to 16, his movement is halved (from 20’ to 10’) and actions are -1d.

Containers..........Max........EV ||| Coins..........................EV
Backpack.............12.........6* ||| Less than 50 coins............0
Belt Pouch.............2.........1* ||| Every 50 coins.................1
Sack, Small............8........4*
Sack, Large...........16........8*
Saddlebags(2)........24........12*
*Containers halve the EV they carry, up to their Max capacity. Fractional weights are rounded to the nearest EV.

Weapons....................EV ||| Armor......................EV ||| Equipment..................EV
Battleaxe.....................4 ||| Equipped Armor.............0 ||| Candle........................1
Blackjack.....................1 ||| Equipped Shield.............4 ||| Chain, 10’...................8
Blowgun......................4 ||| Extra Clothes.................2 ||| Chalk, 5 pieces.............1
Club...........................4 ||| Padded........................4 ||| Crowbar.....................4
Crossbow ....................8 ||| Leather........................4 ||| Flask.........................1
Dagger.......................1 ||| Studded leather..............4 ||| Flint & steel................1
Dart..........................1 ||| Hide............................6 ||| Grappling hook.............4
Flail...........................4 ||| Scale mail ....................6 ||| Hammer, small............1
Garrote......................1 ||| Chainmail......................6 ||| Holy symbol................1
Handaxe.....................4 ||| Banded mail...................8 ||| Holy water, 1 vial.........1
Javelin.......................4 ||| Half-plate......................8 ||| Iron spike..................1
Lance.........................8 ||| Full plate...................... 8 ||| Lantern ...................4
Longbow.....................8 ||| .................................... ||| Mirror, hand-sized.......1
Longsword...................4 ||| Ammunition.................EV ||| Oil, 1 flask.................1
Mace...........................4 ||| Arrows, Less than 3........0 ||| Pole, 10-foot..............8
Polearm.......................8 ||| Arrows, Every 3.............1 ||| Rations, per day..........1
Shortbow.....................4 ||| Arrows, Quiver of 24......4* ||| Rope, 50’...................4
Short sword.................4 ||| Bolts, Less than 3...........0 ||| Thieves’ tools..............4
Sling...........................1 ||| Bolts, Every 3................1 ||| Torch.......................4
Spear..........................8 ||| Bolts, Quiver of 24.........4* ||| Waterskin...................1
Staff............................4 ||| Stones, Less than 5.......0
Two-handed sword..........8 ||| Stones, Every 5.............1
Warhammer.................4 ||| Pouch of 10...................1*
*Containers halve the EV they carry.

Transportation Carrying Capacities
(PCs weigh twice their capacity plus whatever they are carrying, e.g., a Halfling carrying 10EV weighs 40 EV = 2*15+10)
Transport........Carrying Capacity
Donkey/Mule..................60
Horse, Regular................90
Horse, Warhorse............120
Pony............................50
Cart, 1-horse.................180
Cart, 2-horse.................360

[meinvt]

Seems quite thorough, but I'm sure I'd never use it. I've long ago discovered that any encumbrance rules which take more than about fifteen seconds to compute don't get followed very consistently. I'll probably just stick with "judgement call" encumbrance. Anything more than two moderate sized weapons, armor and a pile of stuff you could obviously fit into a backpack becomes a judgement call about whether you can carry it.

[Skyscraper]

I'm with meinvt on this one.

Your rule appears to make a lot of sense and is well thought out; however it lacks something very important: simplicity. Encumbrance rules are a micro-game within the game itself, per any rules that I've seen, even the simpler ones. I rarely meet players that like playing that micro-game. It's another upkeep that I, and most players I meet, can do without.

This being said, congrats on your rule. The idea to remove the basic equipment from the equation, such as the armor you wear and the small purse you carry, is interesting. Also, not relying solely on weight is also interesting. Finally, since the EV values are not all over the place, a judge could come to evaluate the encumbrance value for any item rather quicly with this system by comparing to other equipment.

[nerdwerds]

I agree with the first two posters that it requires simplicity, just that in my experience nobody wants to do math mid-session.

Was this inspired by Stars Without Number?
I really like that system's encumbrance rules and this system seems to work really similarly. I especially like your "every 50 coins = 1 EV"

[IronWolf]

It looks overly complex to me, but I might not be the target audience. I was quite happy to see that DCC RPG's encumbrance rules amounted to "use common sense". Luckily in the groups I play with this method works as we have the trust within the group to pull it off.

[Colin]

So, apart from the fact that some folks don't use encumbrance rules, the response thus far is that as far as encumbrance rules actually go, these are okay.

The idea was to provide rules that a) took bulk into account rather than just weight (which most encumbrance systems fail to do), that b) used less fiddly numbers and less bean-counting than traditional encumbrance systems, c) that enabled easier judgment of encumbrance values by only using a few simple tiers of encumbrance value, and d) had simpler to apply results of encumbrance.

The real question then isn't, "Do you like/use encumbrance rules?" but, "Do these rules work for their intended aims?" We're looking for folks to play around with them and get a feel for them. The examples make it look more math-intensive than it is, but that's because it's spelled out as formulas, which always makes things look more complex.

Colin

[IronWolf]

The real question then isn't, "Do you like/use encumbrance rules?"

Fair enough! I hope I didn't come across too negative.

So - let me look at the rules a little closer. All comments based on read through, not actual play of course.

The Base EV is 25 for Humans and Elves, 15 for Halflings (tiny folk), and 30 for Dwarves (broad-shouldered).

This seems reasonable, though maybe a little high for elves? Maybe not though. I like that dwarves get the top value, I suspected they were most likely to run into the realm of not being able to move once they hit the half movement level. The higher base value helps with that a bit.

I also like that worn armor does not count against EV.

Throg the fighter has a 14 strength (+1 modifier), so his carrying capacity is 25+2*1 = 27.

The "*1" can be dropped from the equation, right? The formula is just Base+(STR modifier * 2) = Total EV, right?

From the two examples given it looks like both are approaching the edge of penalties. The warrior 3 away from it and the halfling right at it. This is as they set foot out the door to go adventuring. This does not leave them much room to pick up any treasure, found weapons, etc before hitting penalties. Is that the desired effect?

I understand wanting to make carrying off all the loot in the Dungeon an impossible thing (or at least a penalized thing), but this seems like a small number of encounters is going to put characters into the penalized territory. Given the low amount of magic items in a DCC RPG campaign the party isn't apt to find a bag of holding too early on to help with this.

Thoughts?

I disagree with some of the Base EV's, but that is more a quibble than anything major. Several of those seem more subjective. A lot of the ones I question are from the sundry items - like, chalk, flint and steel, iron spike, mirror, flask, waterskin, etc. Again - I think these are more minor issues than anything.

Actual play would probably help see how they work more than any read through I can do, but you are already asking for feedback from actual play. Hopefully you will get it.

[Skyscraper]

The real question then isn't, "Do you like/use encumbrance rules?" but, "Do these rules work for their intended aims?" We're looking for folks to play around with them and get a feel for them. The examples make it look more math-intensive than it is, but that's because it's spelled out as formulas, which always makes things look more complex.

I'm not sure I agree. If an encumbrance rule was very simple, I'd probably use it. The question is "would you be ready to use this encumbrance rule?". My answer is no, like for all others I've seen.

An example of a simple rule I'd be ready to use:

Your character sheet is divided into three equipment boxes, each containing a specific number of lines. Each box is for one type of item, say very small (gems) for the first, small (dagger) for the second and large (long sword) for the third. Your emcumbrance capacity amounts to you being able to fill those lines. One line in the very small box could amount to, say, 50 coins. Each time you add 50 coins, you need to take a new line. You can use boxes from the upper category to fill it with items of the smaller category if you wish, e.g. put a dagger in a line of the large item box. With this system, no need for calculations, no need to track a number each time you add or remove an item. It requires no effort from the player.

If you want to add a layer to the latter rule, you could have greyed out lines in each box. These could correspond to extra capacity, at the cost of a penalty (e.g. half movement and actions at -1d or the like). If any greyed line of one of the three boxes is filled with equipment, you're loaded at extra capacity and you take the penalty.

Sky

[Pesky]

Thanks very much meinvt, Sky, nerdwerds, and IronWolf for taking the time to think about this and give some feedback! Thanks also Colin for chiming in.

Your comments are helpful because they tell me that I may have taken a simple system and made it seem more complicated than it is. I'll think about how to fix that. Let me give you my take on some of your comments:

I've long ago discovered that any encumbrance rules which take more than about fifteen seconds to compute don't get followed very consistently.

...nobody wants to do math mid-session.

I totally agree with you two. The thing is, the most math-intenisive stuff (that could last more than 15 seconds) happens at the beginning of the adventure. After that, the only number that must be kept track of is how many free EV a character has; this will most likely be a small, single-digit number. Since items are grouped mostly in groups of either 1, 4, or 8 EV, it is quick and easy to know if a character can carry an extra item or not.

...
Was this inspired by Stars Without Number?
I really like that system's encumbrance rules and this system seems to work really similarly.

No, I'm not familiar with Stars Without Number, but I will take a look.

Fair enough! I hope I didn't come across too negative.

Not at all. No worries!

The Base EV is 25 for Humans and Elves, 15 for Halflings (tiny folk), and 30 for Dwarves (broad-shouldered).

This seems reasonable, though maybe a little high for elves? Maybe not though. I like that dwarves get the top value, I suspected they were most likely to run into the realm of not being able to move once they hit the half movement level. The higher base value helps with that a bit.

Yes, you are right that Dwarves in full plate that try to carry things beyond their capacity will find themselves unable to move. We could fix this by reducing the armor-modified movement by half, but this causes Dwarves in chainmail to have do deal with a movement of 7.5 = (20-5)/2. Rounding up or down is no biggie, but it does add an extra little complication to the mix.

The "*1" can be dropped from the equation, right? The formula is just Base+(STR modifier * 2) = Total EV, right?

Sure, I was just spelling things out for the folk who are uncomfortable with arithmetic.

From the two examples given it looks like both are approaching the edge of penalties. The warrior 3 away from it and the halfling right at it. This is as they set foot out the door to go adventuring. This does not leave them much room to pick up any treasure, found weapons, etc before hitting penalties. Is that the desired effect?

I understand wanting to make carrying off all the loot in the Dungeon an impossible thing (or at least a penalized thing), but this seems like a small number of encounters is going to put characters into the penalized territory.

I don't think it is "desired", but it is indeed a consequence. PCs that enter in a dungeon fully-equipped with many types of weaponry may have trouble carrying additional stuff if they are not really strong. As you mentioned, the base EV values can certainly be increased. This is one thing for which I'm hoping play-testing in my own group (and hopefully others) will provided some guidance.

Actual play would probably help see how they work more than any read through I can do, but you are already asking for feedback from actual play. Hopefully you will get it.

Yep, I hope so. Thanks again for devoting time and neurons to this.

[funkaoshi]

As others have noted, this is probably far too complex to work in a regular game session. I'd look at or steal whole sale the rules from LotFP.